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So, I just joined Dakka Dakka, read somewhere that is was one of few places where you can have intelligent people critique lists and generally chat with.

Well I'm building a Mech Eldar army, mostly for local gaming, but I live in a very competitive area, so you pretty much have to have a competitive list to do well. I'ld love to have some Eldar pros go over my list.


HQ
Farseer, Singing Spear, RoWard, Spirit Stones, Doom, Guide [138]

Elites
5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent, 2xShuriken Cannons [190]

Troops
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2 DASC, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon [297]

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2 DASC, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon [297]

5 Dire Avengers [60]

10 Storm Guardians, 2xFlamer [272]
Warlock, Destructor
Wave Serpent, TL Bright Lance, Shuriken Cannon

Fast Attack
3x1 Vyper Squadrens, Shuriken Cannons, Scatter Lasers [210]

Heavy Support
2 Fire Prisms, Shuriken Cannons [250]

Falcon, Scatter Laser [130]

[1844]

So, the idea is kp denial and last minute objective grabbing. The 5 man DA group sits in the falcon in the back field, possibly near an objective white the farseer guides the falcon and dooms targets. Lemme know what you think, criticism is welcome.

Well, looks quite good.
Possibly you don't need 4 troop units. You could replace the Storm Guardians by Fire Dragons.

Welcome to Mechdar! Your list looks pretty good overall, and you seem to be getting the idea. However, a few moderate changes are needed.

First, know that in a mech list it pays to pare things down to bare essentials. This is so that you can buy as many units as possible. Without this precaution, you end up with a very small force that simply can't kill enough enemies or hold objectives, no matter how much durability-increasing bling it wears.

One notable exception to this is Spirit Stones. With Mechdar, standing still is death. 10 points to still be able to transport a unit, tank shock an enemy off of an objective, ram, or hide until you recover the ability to shoot- that's a bargain. Put Stones on every single tank.

Also, tanks with high-strength weaponry will rarely sit still enough to shoot a shuriken cannon. Pull them off of everything except Serpents with TL EML (I know you have none- that's just where they go, if you do field them). Use the points for Stones. Easy!

What's good in your list:

The Doomseer. Do drop the Spirit stones and Guide on him, though. They will not come in as handy as many other things that you can buy for the points.

The 2x Prisms. These puppies both kill stuff and distract from your scoring units. Great tanks, those.

The Serpents with TL brightlances. Good choice for a list which otherwise has only one anti-tank unit. Also, it's great that you know to avoid spending points on the Dragons' transport guns. You need to close range quickly with those guys, so their Serpent will be moving 24". Took me a while to figure that one out! By the way, you'll want vectored engines on the Dragons' tank. It usually goes fast enough to need them if it crashes, and will be a prime target of elite armies (Marines). Insure that the cargo gets there, no matter what.

The 2 full Avenger squads. Other players decry them as too expensive. I disagree. With Bladestorm, they kick hiney if focused on the same target, with a secondary target nearby should a Bladestorm wipe out the first target (unlikely, but it happens).

Also, lots of Troops. 4 is a good amount- even 3 is fragile. Once you get good you can run that few, but 4 is much better. With 5-objective games, it really helps your odds, especially against Guard and Marines.



Now that we've praised the good stuff, here's the stuff that needs to go:

The Vypers. They're fragile as heck, can't shoot both the guns that you have on there, and they detract from your numbers of grav tanks. More grav tanks means more similar targets for your opponents, more splitting of their effective anti-skimmer weapons (autocannons especially), and more confusing choices. Giving them a good target for things like heavy bolters (which kill Vypers quickly) is a mistake. Drop the Vypers, buy another tank and unit.

The Storm Guard. Love them as I do, they're just too fragile. Even the utility of the flamers is not enough to compensate for that low save, WS 3, etc. Against anything other than guard, the unit shoots then dies. A better fit would be either more Dire Avengers in a Serpent (even without Exarch if points are scarce), or a small unit of Pathfiners to hold home objectives (which comes in very handy when the rest of your army is zooming about).

Finally, the Falcon. Without holofields, it doesn't transport as well as a Serpent (too fragile), nor does it shoot as well as a Prism. Ditch it for either another Prism or more transported units- either Dragons or more Avengers.



So my recommendations in short: ditch the Vypers, Falcon, extra powers on the Seer, and Storm Guard. Invest in more of the other stuff that you've already got. You MIGHT want to also add a small CC element, like Yriel attached to an Avenger squad that's got powerweapon/shimmershield- but you don't absolutely need it. Mechdar can get away with dodging and shooting versus most enemies, then running in to contest or swamp objectives in the last turn.

Oh, and get good with tank shocking enemies off of objectives. You've got the best tanks for it in the game, and plenty of them.

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply. I have a good understanding of how to play the army on paper, but that information can definitely be flawed.

I understand that the Vypers need to go. They were basically added to add a few cheat RoF weapons in the army w/o slowing it down. I hate that they are prime targets early game for small arms fire (even a bolter can crack them open). Any suggestions on a high RoF weapon? Or am I missing the point and 3 Fire Prisms should handle that?

I was having issues with the Cannons not being fired so I dumped them for Spirit Stones.

If I add a second unit of Fire Dragons do you think Ill need the TL Bright Lances? If not should I go EML/Cannon on most/all the Wave Serpents? Catapult/Scatter Laser sounds good too, but I think I like the redundancy of weapons that can drop vehicles from any side.

Dropped the Storm Guardians for a clone of the other DA squads, never really liked them anyways.

Also a DA squad with Yriel, do you skip Bladestorm and use Defend, both, or neither?

Again, thanks for all the advice, and welcoming me to the forums.

Good questions. I get the feeling that though you're new to Dakka, you're not new to the game. Izzat so?

Another Prism will indeed pretty much equal 3 high-RoF weapons like you had on the Vypers, and will also allow you to retire one Prisms every round due to the inevitable shaken result. Another note on Prisms- I like to have one with holos, one without. Sit the one without at extreme range from the enemy for longshots and contributing to the other Prism.

As for the DA squad with Yriel, I go for the whole deal- PW/SS, Defend, Bladestorm. Bladestorm is optional if you're low on points, the other things are not.

Regarding weaponry on the Serpents, even with 2x Dragons you will want a few longer-range antitank weapons. You've got to deliver those Dragons over a turn or two, and keeping tanks shaken during that time helps a lot. Thus, at least 2 brightlances is a very good idea, regardless of how many Dragons units you have. After that, field anti-personnel weapons. The TL shuricannons on the Dragons' tanks will help, after they're done zooming the first 1-2 turns. TL EML plus shuricannon is probably your best bet, as it can supplement anti-tank/anti-transport fire early on, and then act as anti-personnel later.

Also, do consider some Pathfinders. I dismissed them (for Mechdar) for a long time, but recently have found them invaluable for objective-camping. Just 5 do nicely. They help out in Dawn of War setups, too. When firing at a Doomed target, they can really put the hurt on anything. The pin checks are just icing. Consider this unit as an alternative to more Dragons- try both setups, and see which suits your movement and attack pattern better. They do different things, so it's really about how well you already use your resources for those things. I try to just keep enemy vehicles ineffective (shaken for gun platforms, destroying transports as a priority) while putting an emphasis on killing enemy Troops. YMMV, though.

Finally- speaking of Dragons, if you _do_ field 2 squads, you might consider taking an Exarch with flamer in each unit. Normally I'm against diluting your fusion power and spending extra points, but if you're going that far in favor of anti-tank firepower the flamer can help cover your blindspot against hordes.

I have been playing since 3rd edition, stopped playing for quite a while, and just picked it up recently. I picked up Orks right after their codex released, but hated the "meat grinder" gameplay.

I actually don't like Fire Dragons that much in general, so I'm gonna try to stick with 1 unit, I might try another in the future, but I doubt it. Kinda nervous about using a foot unit (pathfinders), but I like the models enough that I'm willing to give em a go, also I like the "cheap" hard unit sitting in cover, 3+ cover save...what's not to love I guess.

Ok, changed the list a bit. Haven't play tested to my "style" yet.

HQ
Yriel [155]

Farseer, Doom, RoWard

Elite
5 Fire Dragons
Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Cannon, SS, VE [210]

Troops
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, PW/SS, Bladestorm, Defend
Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Catapult, TL Scatter Laser, SS [302]

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2 DASC, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Catapult, TL Bright Lance, SS [297]

10 Dire Avengers, Exarch, 2 DASC, Bladestorm
Wave Serpent, TL Shuriken Catapult, TL Bright Lance, SS [297]

5 Pathfinders [120]

Heavy Support
3xFire Prisms, SS

Total is 1851 :-/

But what do you think of this setup?

Well, I'd give all DA Serpents bright lances.
The rest looks quite good.

Not an expert but you now at a common list used by many Eldar players.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I'd give all DA Serpents bright lances.
The rest looks quite good.

If only I had the points. I'm 1 pt over as it is.

It looks good, PunkMasta.
@rzsanguine, many Mechdar tank lists look alike because your choices are limited if you want to cover all the bases. It's how one uses them that varies widely: there is an especially wide range of choices due to their high maneuverability and capacity yet fragile scoring units. So similar unit choices can still be played very differently- which is why good Mechdar players stand out.

Back to list revision:
Okay, after a bit of consideration and a recent game that involved lots of crashing Serpents, I am swayed by the argument that VEs are largely redundant for troops with Leadership 9. You still have a 1/6th chance or so of being pinned if the Serpent gets taken down en route to target, but that's really not that high. It can fubar your only heavy anti-armor unit, but you do have lots of Prisms and brightlance Serpents to rely on too. I have tended to insure my Dragons more carefully, but will be changing that in my next few games, and probably sticking with it. So there's 20 points you could trim, and put towards more guns, etc.

I do think that a TL EML and undermounted shuricannon on your third Avenger-bearing Serpent would be generally better than the TL scatterlasers, once you've got the points. Another thing you might sink extra points into is a Singing Spear for your Farseer. They're a handy anti-tank weapon if your resources are stretched by, say, a Landraider Spam or Deffrolla list.

More importantly, the choice of only taking one unit of Dragons is a good one. They pretty much die every game, which can seem a bit of a waste when weighed against the need for more scoring units and resilient hitting power (although the Dragons almost always take something expensive with them...). As above, 3 Prisms and 2 TL brightlances will help balance out having fewer Dragons.

You're pretty much done with your list, Punkmasta. Build these units and let us know how it plays!

Oh, and PS- Magnetize, magnetize, magnetize! It'll allow you to fine-tune without the hassle of proxying or re-building models all the time. It's worth the time investment up front.

So what do you think of the Mech + Jetbike Council lists? I personally and not into them, don't like the "feel" of them, do you use the jetbikes as a cc unit or fly them around shooting? I hate lists that dump a ton of points into one central unit and the rest is filler.

Yeah, I feel the same about a list with one real effective unit type, especially 2-Council lists. Woohoo, real fun. I think I'll go watch paint dry. Only at 'Ard Boyz/gladiator tourneys would it be interesting to field such a thing.

OTHO, Bike Council lists with a single Council actually do allow you to pack in a fair amount of other stuff, but that usually has to include a "hammer" to work with the Council. Banshees or Spears work well enough, or even just a bike Autarch with Laser Lance (who also gets grenades, unlike the rest of the Council). Everything else that you can fit into such a list is just gravy. Watching the gravy do stuff can be fun though, actually.

As for use- the Bike Council should never shoot (unless it's spears into transport vehicles), just fly right into CC.