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Someone please explain to me about multiple close combats.

Apparently there was some big to-do about Unit C charging into a fight between units 1 and 2, and that unit 2 couldn't attack C, only unit 1, which it was fighting before.

What the HELL? When did this happen? Can't you choose which models fight who?

And, err, where did you hear that? Page 41, there are a grand total of 4 extra rules regarding multiple combats. Pile in, 2 rules on attacking and 1 on Resolution.

Or are you talking about 3 way fights? A clearer description of what you mean would be helpful

My Noisemarines are fighting some tactical marines. Some vanguard veterans charge in to help. Naturally I want to direct my I5 attacks towards the charging vanguards to take the sting out of their assault.


Apparently at some 'ard boyz game, it was ruled that my NM would only be able to attack tactical marines, not vanguards, and those that weren't in a position to attack tactical marines but were in contact with vanguards wouldn't be able to attack at all?

Check Page 41 again, which deals with multiple assaults. The only thing that comes anywhere close to that off the top of my head are the rules for defensive grenades, which cannot be used if charged by another unit while locked in combat.

The rule originated at an 'Ard Boyz ruling, at one point.

Stupid ruling, but I heard the 'Ard Boyz in that area was stupid (If I'm correct, of course...)

P.S. Welcome back Gwar! We missed you. Well...most of us...

Gwar! wrote:Check Page 41 again, which deals with multiple assaults. The only thing that comes anywhere close to that off the top of my head are the rules for defensive grenades, which cannot be used if charged by another unit while locked in combat.

Not that I doubt the might Gwar, but where does it talk about defensive grenades not being able to be used while engaged with someone else? Just out of curiousity for myself. I would wager your right, but again, this is just out of curiosity as I love reading about rules....

s2ua7 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Check Page 41 again, which deals with multiple assaults. The only thing that comes anywhere close to that off the top of my head are the rules for defensive grenades, which cannot be used if charged by another unit while locked in combat.

Not that I doubt the might Gwar, but where does it talk about defensive grenades not being able to be used while engaged with someone else? Just out of curiousity for myself. I would wager your right, but again, this is just out of curiosity as I love reading about rules....

<Emperor>You doubt my Skills young Padawan</Palpatine>

Page 36, The Box Entitled "Grenades", Defensive Grenades, Sentence 3.

Cryonicleech wrote:The rule originated at an 'Ard Boyz ruling, at one point.

Stupid ruling, but I heard the 'Ard Boyz in that area was stupid (If I'm correct, of course...)

P.S. Welcome back Gwar! We missed you. Well...most of us...

How did that even START, though? What could possibly be misconstrued?

Spellbound wrote:Someone please explain to me about multiple close combats.

Apparently there was some big to-do about Unit C charging into a fight between units 1 and 2, and that unit 2 couldn't attack C, only unit 1, which it was fighting before.

What the HELL? When did this happen? Can't you choose which models fight who?

This discussion requires the rule FAQ in addition to the BRB--I have neither at the moment. Anyhow--the proper way to play this rule is as follows

o=space marines
x=orks

8 orks are engaged in combat with 4 space marines:
oooo
xxxx
xxxx

after 1 round of combat strangely nothing dies. In the following turn 4 more space marines move up and charge the orks

oooo
xxxx
xxxx
oooo

The top row of orks can only direct their attacks at the top row of marines this turn. On the next turn (round 3 of the assault), the top orks could direct their attacks on the bottom marines as they are within 2" of a unit in base-to-base with the enemy. HOWEVER, the bottom row of orks is free to attack the bottom row of marines the turn they charge because they were not in base-to-base with the original marines.

It was a common misconception back when fifth first came out. The second bullet point on the top of page 41 is where it came from.

The TO must have read that bullet point and thought that "at the beginning of combat" meant the beginning of the assault phase.

Well the Errata says:

Page 41 – Multiple Combats, Attacking.
A third bullet point should be added, as follows:
• Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units, must attack that unit.

But that doesn't seem to indicate that they cannot attack the new combat, only that if you are in B2B with only one of the multiple units, you must attack that unit.

In the situation that he describes he is already in combat with the tacts when the vanguards attacked him. Therefor for that combat he must attack the tacts that he was already in combat with, but next round he may split his attacks.

The first bullet is the OP situation, the second bullet explains when his round comes around and he is already engage with both units that he may attack either.

BlueDagger wrote:In the situation that he describes he is already in combat with the tacts when the vanguards attacked him. Therefor for that combat he must attack the tacts that he was already in combat with, but next round he may split his attacks.

The first bullet is the OP situation, the second bullet explains when his round comes around and he is already engage with both units that he may attack either.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:It was a common misconception back when fifth first came out. The second bullet point on the top of page 41 is where it came from.

The TO must have read that bullet point and thought that "at the beginning of combat" meant the beginning of the assault phase.

I was the TO in question. And the above two quotes come pretty close to some of the arguements going on in my head at the time.
After reading everything, including the faq, I went and got 2nd and 3rd opinions from other players that I knew had a good knowledge of the rules, and were away from that part of the room away from the game in question. Both indicated the orks should throw their attacks at the space marine unit they had been priorly engaged with.

Love to see some more discussion on the rules in that section.

Here's a more slightly larger example that shows what these rules actually do, and how a specific model may be affected. Assume all models that are "adjacent" in this crude drawing are in base to base contact.

xxxx
oooO
oooo
oooo
xxxx

The bottom row of x's charged this turn, but are all initiative 1 (difficult terrain perhaps). The capital O is initiative 2. All other o's are initiative 4, all x's in the top row are initiative 3.

Initiative 4 rolls around, the o's split their attacks, and manage to kill several in the top row of x's. Now it looks like this:

xx
oooO
oooo
oooo
xxxx

After init 3, the remaining top x's have swung, but didn't manage to kill anyone.

xx
oooO
oooo
oooo
xxxx

Now at init 2, the single O looks like he would be able to swing against either unit, as he is within 2" of a model in base contact with either. He would probably want to swing at the ones that haven't had a chance to swing yet, solidifying a tie at the very least if he kills at least one. But after applying the errata on multiple combats, while O was engaged with both rows of x's, he was in base contact with the top row at the start of this turn's combat, and not with the bottom row. Therefore, by the rules for multiple assaults, he must attack the top row. In fluff terms, this means that just because any random enemy from the unit he was face to face with was cut down, it doesn't mean that he wouldn't press forward to the next enemy in that unit before seeking out other threats. This by no means prevents the bottom two rows of o's from swinging against the bottom x's, or that any models out of range of the top row wouldn't be able to swing at all. That's honestly rather ridiculous to even think of, that a model wouldn't fight back against anyone. What it does mean, is that the top row must swing at the top x's, the bottom must swing at the bottom x's, and the middle row can swing wherever the controlling player chooses.

mikhaila wrote:
I was the TO in question.

The "beginning of combat" is when the dudes start swinging, after the Defenders React move. New assaults happen before the beginning of combat.

So, er the TO was right then? The engaged squad receiving the charge can't dedicate attacks against the new attacking squad?

No. Models can attack units they were in base to base at the start of combat, or failing that, units that are base to base with another model within 2". All new assault charges are done before the start of combat, so the defenders can indeed direct their attacks at the new threat.

Models that were in base contact with the original unit but not the new unit must dedicate attacks to the original unit.

Models that are now in base contact with the new unit but not in base contact with the original unit must swing against the new unit.

Models in base contact with neither can swing against anyone they are in range to swing at.

Models that start in base contact with multiple units may swing at any of those units.

The ruling was incorrect.

It seems everyone is missing the "beginning of combat" like SlowPoke said.

Yes, in the 'Ard Boyz example the top Orks must fight the top Marines and the bottom Orks must fight the bottom Marines (at least for that initial Round of multicombat)

But for the OP, if his Noise Marines were in base-to-base with Tact, then Vanguard charged into base-to-base, the Noise Marine models in b2b with just Tact must attack Tact, the Noise Marine models in b2b with just Vanguard must attack Vanguard and any non-b2b but 2" engaged Noise Marines may choose.

Smashotron wrote:It seems everyone is missing the "beginning of combat" like SlowPoke said.

Yes, in the 'Ard Boyz example the top Orks must fight the top Marines and the bottom Orks must fight the bottom Marines (at least for that initial Round of multicombat)

But for the OP, if his Noise Marines were in base-to-base with Tact, then Vanguard charged into base-to-base, the Noise Marine models in b2b with just Tact must attack Tact, the Noise Marine models in b2b with just Vanguard must attack Vanguard and any non-b2b but 2" engaged Noise Marines may choose.

...and thus the judge ruled incorrectly as was already illustrated by the diagrams provided by myself and maleus.

olympia wrote:

Smashotron wrote:It seems everyone is missing the "beginning of combat" like SlowPoke said.

Yes, in the 'Ard Boyz example the top Orks must fight the top Marines and the bottom Orks must fight the bottom Marines (at least for that initial Round of multicombat)

But for the OP, if his Noise Marines were in base-to-base with Tact, then Vanguard charged into base-to-base, the Noise Marine models in b2b with just Tact must attack Tact, the Noise Marine models in b2b with just Vanguard must attack Vanguard and any non-b2b but 2" engaged Noise Marines may choose.

...and thus the judge ruled incorrectly as was already illustrated by the diagrams provided by myself and maleus.

Concede my point as I didn't see the last portion where the OP started there was a portion that wasn't in B2B contact with the originating unit. This is a bad call by the judges as errata clearly state that if a model wasn't in B2B with the original unit and is now in bases to base with the new unit, then they must attack that new unit.

Slowpoke has pointed out the fact that lies at the crux of this. If you read the multiple combats section without taking into account the close combat rules as a whole, then yes, it does sound like you may not direct attacks at a new assaulting unit. However, if you look at the flowchart at the beginning of the CC rules, you find that 'the beginning of combat" is not the beginning of the CC phase, but is after all units have made assault and reaction moves. Your noise marines should have been able to attack the vanguard vets.

Interesting that the rules writers even tried to clarify "beginning of combat" as distinct from "beginning of assault" by specifying "before any model attacked." But that didn't quite do the job of communicating the idea "before any model attacked *that player turn*" thus leading to the confusion and the incorrect call at the tournament.

I didn't even know this was an issue before I saw it here.

A friend of mine plays tournaments at Great Escape Games in Sacramento... and they've been ruling it incorrectly there forever.

Ok, that's what I thought. I figured if you're in btb with one, you can't choose to support people against a different unit. That I knew.

But I was sure that being within 2" but not in btb you were allowed to choose who to support, and if in btb with the second unit, you were still allowed to attack that one, rather than "sorry, nobody at all"

Scenario: Tac marines are fighting guants. Next turn, genestealers attack the marines also.

There are two issues,

Models that are in base, and those that are not.

Models in base at the beginning of combat have to attack the unit(s) they are in base with.
Those that are not in base at the beginning of combat, can attack any unit they are engaged with at the beginning of combat.


Now comes the issue of 'beginning of combat'
There are 3 'interpretations'
The rules are fairly clear that it is after assaults and Reacts, but before attacks. And the other two scenarios give big trouble.

If you believe the beginning of combat is when the first two units start fighting. But that means the marines will *never* be allowed to attack the stealers. Even if all the gaunts die.

If you believe the beginning of combat is actually the beginning of the combat phase.
What happens if the gaunts and stealers attack the marines on the same turn? It means that *no one* can attack that turn, since no one was engaged at the beginning of combat phase.

There are 3 'interpretations'

None of those make any sense and are not what the rules say at all. I think you are mistaking when you determine engagement and when you determine who you actually strike but I am not sure.

As noted above, start of the fight and beginning of the combat are all synonymous with the beginning of part 3 of the Assault Phase (GW didn't do us any favors by using assault, combat and fight interchangibly throught the book though).

Any event, lets look at the actual rules.

BRB pg 35 wrote:Working out which models are engaged in combat is done at the start of the fight, and will not change until
its end --

This is for non-multiple combat. Note this is just determining engaged or not engaged.

Now for multiple combats, you still work out who is engaged at the start of the combat, as above. However:

BRB pg. 41 wrote:In multiple combats, when it is time for a model to attack, the following extra rules apply:

The bulleted rules that follow apply to when a model actually attacks.

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit.

Simple enough. If a model was only ever engaged with one unit after the assault or react moves, then that is who they direct their attacks at. If that unit is already wiped, then they can't carry over damage into the other unit (prolly the only real reason to even have this caveat).

Models that were engaged with more than one enemy unit at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) may split their attacks freely between those units. Declare how they are splitting their attacks immediately before rolling to hit.

So any models that were engaged with multiple units before dice were rolled may choose to split their attacks between these units when they actually roll to hit (so at their Initiative step).

There's a third bullet added via errata because the rule was ommited (it was included in the diagram below though)

BGB Errata wrote:Models that at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) were engaged with more than one enemy unit, but were in base contact with just one of the enemy units, must attack that unit.

So here if a model is in B2B with one unit, it will have to direct attacks at that unit when it is time for it to attack. If that unit is somehow wiped at a higher Initiative step, that model is not allowed to then attack another unit it is engaged but was not base to base with.

So lets say we have the situation described above but with a bit of a tweak to illustrate how this works

A unit of Marines (9 of em. 1 w/ fist) + Captain is already engaged with gaunts (4 of em) and is assaulted by genestealers (6 of em). So here is the breakdown

1. Stealers make their assault moves (no DT terrain roll is made, for clarity).

2. Captain then Marines react. Note that by the rules the marine have to react toward both Stealers and Gaunts, not just the Stealers. Another reason why you determine engagement after assault and react, not start of the assault phase.

3. Resolve Combat.
So first you determine who is engaged (pg 35); with whom they are engaged (pg 41) and which units they are in base to base with (errata).

Lets say the Captain is B2B with 2 gaunts (no stealers), 2 Marines are B2B with gaunts and Stealers, Fist Sgt and another marine is B2B with just gaunts (but is technically also engaged with stealers), 2 marines are engaged with both and 3 marines are engaged with just stealers

So that out of the way, onto attacks
Stealers go at I6, have to attack marines, and kill 1 each of the non-b2b models

Captain goes at I5. He has to attack gaunts and kills 3, leaving 1 alive.

Gaunts and non-fist marines go simultaneous at I4.
The 1 marine in b2b with just gaunts has to attack guants. There's 2 guys that have to attack stealers and the rest can decide to attack either and go for the stealers. Gaunt whiffs and dies to the 1 marine who attacked and the other marines kill a few stealers.

Powerfist sgt at I1 is screwed. He was B2B with just gaunts and even though he is in 2" of a model engaged with stealers he may not attack them.

A long drawn out example but I hope that helps.