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And anything Fearless costs way too much, except Plaguers (which are still expensive and need Offensive back up from CSM) or Noise Marines standing still for the whole game. Fabius... no. Read the article in my sig.

Read the discussion thread about the article to hear much of what you've said and some good back and forth about it already done. First off: IoCG. 'nuff said. Pinning isn't a huge issue anymore, except against DE in Planetstrike.

@Sanctjud: Plaguers can take the heat from small arms fire, no doubt. What you're missing is that they don't return it at near the same rate. A Plague marine is 1 1/2 a CSM.

@Winter: The article does include that restriction. "Function well in small squads" only applies when they stand still for at least half the game, and they still have the reduced body count.

Any further discussion pertaining to the article should go in it's discussion thread My 2 cents is that fearless would be worth it as a "Veteran Skill," but not on many of the platforms we can get it on.

Sanctjud wrote:@Night Lords:
It only helps with failed morale.

NOT all leadership tests, that's a huge distinction. If you rr all ld test you are doing it wrong.

Off the top of my head, what is there besides psychic, morale and pinning? Am i missing something?

Sanctjud wrote:@Cannerus_The_Unbearable:
Not exactly 1.5, but close.

IMO it's comparable.
PM are tougher, less offensive.
CSM are MEQ(less tough), more 'small arms' attacks.

In the end they balance each other out in terms of combat results.
CSM kill more, die a bit more.
PM's kill less, die less.

My 7 Cents.

Exactly. I've had much more luck at higher points levels to have more CSM running around with a nice beatstick coming in to help mid-game (DSing Termi squad, big IC, Summoned Greater, Winged DP, etc.) to deal with whatever their massive number of meltas and combis on the champs can't deal with. Granted if you're not using Rhinos for some reason the 10-man squad is a weird benchmark to get your 2 heavies. That's one thing I love about Assault Havocs and hitching ICs. Who says Chaos can't field Fire Dragons?

@Sanc: I used to pad with LDs but for 2 points more you can get guns and a 3+ armor as opposed to a 5+ invuln. It helps that they start off the board so there's less time for them to get shot, but those 2 points get you quite a bit in return. Where are our drop pods again?

Then it comes down to "Is it worth paying extra points for the chance that you'll be playing any of those armies." Everyone's mileage will vary on that.

Nurglitch wrote:It's possible to get Enhanced Marines into favorable combats without using the Lash of Submission.

Waht are those things called? Rh.. Rhi-something...

Putting it in those terms make the "being stuck-in" seem like more of a tactical option. It will sometimes be advantageous to get the guy out in the open to counter-blast him next turn and sometimes better to tar pit him with a fearless unit. Kind of a nihilistic approach though :(

An amusing tale: I have 7 CSM with an Icon of Slaanesh charging a unit of 2 Plaguebearers. Nothing happens in that combat. Next turn a Soulgrinder joins the festivities, killing a couple marines. I had wiffed completely on my attacks. I fail morale, roll a 1 to get away and he rolls a 6, and, lo and behold, my Slaaneshi marines are run down by 2 Plaguebearers.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

I think you're missing some basic math here, NL. 99 < 100 and IoCG does not make a unit "fearless". If there's a psyker battle squad, a culexus assassin, a psychic choir or certain Witchhunter units in the area, the fearless units are still 100% while non-fearless units become increasingly likely to run off.

Forgot Dark Eldar.