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Very new to WH40K, only really watched one game.

I've plumped for the Necrons because I liked the figures, but have found out late that the 750points we will be playing gives the 'crons very few options and they are better at higher points. That said, I will have to keep to the 750point limit (which is about what figures I have anyway) - so what do I do?

My thoughts were ...

Necron Lord RO VOD
10 x warriors
10 x warriors
3 x scarabs
3 destroyers

or swop the destroyers for 5 or 6 immortals.

Assuming if I use the lord with either a squad of warriors, or the immortals for porting round the table, which do you reckon is going to be the most useful against an assault army and a shooty army.

Get rid of the veil of darkness, at 750 points a bad scatter roll would ruin the entire game for you.

I would suggest getting rid of the scarabs, destroyers, and VOD, and put a monolith in their place, except, well.... nobody needs to win that badly. Get rid of the scarabs and the VOD, and replace with more destroyers. (or a monolith if you dont care if everyone in the world hates you)

Necrons are AWESOME between 650-1000 points. (especially 650 point Combat Patrols)

Standard FoC list examples:

Lith List
-----------------------------------------------
155 - Lord (Scythe, Gaze, Nightmare)
360 - requisite 20x Warriors
235 - Monolith
-----------------------------------------------

Counter-Charge List
(kind of a gamble with all of the fearless)
-----------------------------------------------
100 - Lord (bare-bones)
360 - requisite 20x Warriors
110 - 2x Tomb Spyder
180 - 5x Pariah
-----------------------------------------------

Destroyer List
-----------------------------------------------
185 - Lord (Scythe, D-Body, Nightmare, Gaze)
360 - requisite 20x Warriors
150 - 3x Destroyers
55 - 1x Tomb Spyder
-----------------------------------------------
:: the TS is there so you can split up your warriors more easily, but a fourth Destroyer may serve you better depending on your group.

Belphegor wrote:Necrons are AWESOME between 650-1000 points. (especially 650 point Combat Patrols)

Standard FoC list examples:

Lith List
-----------------------------------------------
155 - Lord (Scythe, Gaze, Nightmare)
360 - requisite 20x Warriors
235 - Monolith
-----------------------------------------------

Destroyer List
-----------------------------------------------
185 - Lord (Scythe, D-Body, Nightmare, Gaze)
360 - requisite 20x Warriors
150 - 3x Destroyers
55 - 1x Tomb Spyder
-----------------------------------------------
:: the TS is there so you can split up your warriors more easily, but a fourth Destroyer may serve you better depending on your group.

Dirty. I like 'em.

OK Jihallah, this is awesome. Your the first person I have heard say that the necron aren't rubbish below 1500 points.

OK - so please forgive me here for being a noobie, but ....

Counter Charge list.
I don' really understand why the 2 x TS and why the pariahs? The Pariahs lower ld and are fearless but otherwise I'm a bit clueless (literally at the moment )

With the destroyer list .. I take it you put the lord in with the destroyers, is his equipment to make them a little more lastable in combat?

I have read that 'crons are rubbish in combat and you need to keep in missle. But once locked in combat with someone like the 'nids ... don't you need the VOD to get out of dodge city?

Would love some advice, I have to take on the 'nids in a couple of weeks.

If you get into close combat with warriors, there generally won't be a next turn.
So VOD as an escape route, is nixed.

The counter charge list:
Your marching them as a block.
Like So:
          (Warriors)
(Spyder) (Pariahs) (Spyder)
    (Warriors with Lord)
It's a mini phalanx list. The Pariahs are for longer ranged guns, and to punish the unit that wipes out the first squad of warriors.
The two tomb spyders are to destroy any immobilized vehicles and so the warriors can split for objectives more readily.

The Destroyer List:
The Lord soaks some of the damage, but is there mostly for rapid Nightmare.

At small points values, I would run more Scarabs - they are the best assault unit you can have - a full unit of 10 (120 points) can lock up any nasty assault unit the enemy sends until the end of time.

I'd have to agree about the Scarabs, they can rarely win a combat though, and are best used to really save your ass in the event you have a really nasty CC squad heading for your warriors.

You could do something like

Lord - Rez Orb, Gaze of Flame - 155

Scarabs x 8 - 96

Immortals x 5 - 140

Warrior Squad - 180

Warrior Squad - 180

Total - 751 pts

A monolith can make your warriors live for quite awhile if you go with 1 Lord, 2 Warriors and a Monolith. You can keep rolling double WBB all day long, but won't have your main monolith cannon to punch in and take out trasports for you though.

Lord, Gaze of Flame, Rez Orb - 155

Warrior Squad - 180

Warrior Squad - 180

Monolith - 235

Total - 750

I would suggest if you have the points taking a Gaze of flame for your Lord to help him live in CC, it's amazing how many attacks you save against your unit if you negate your opponent's charge bonus.

Good Luck.

HUGE thanks guys. Lots of good advice, and interestingly, quite different.

A couple more questions.

1. Pariahs. They get a huge amount of bad press. Assuming I am mainly playing against Tyranids and Orks, is their Souless rule going to be much help? Should I go with immortals over pariahs?
2. Monolith. Something I need to look at - but I would prefer to play without one for the time being to get used to the other troops.

Kreedos - you have gone for Immortals over destroyers ..... this is one of my main queries ... which should I go for? Should I go with destroyers for a assault army and immortals for a shooter army?

1. Pariahs. They get a huge amount of bad press. Assuming I am mainly playing against Tyranids and Orks, is their Soulless rule going to be much help? Should I go with immortals over pariahs?
   Both of the primary benefits of pariahs are negated/partially negated but an environment heavy with Nids and Orks. Go with Immortals or Destroyers in their stead.

Kreedos - you have gone for Immortals over destroyers ..... this is one of my main queries ... which should I go for? Should I go with destroyers for a assault army and immortals for a shooter army?
   I know the question was directed at Kreedos, but here is my notion of difference at this game level:
Immortals (unit of 5): Wnds.5 / 10x shots / R.24" / S.n / poor mobility :: points = n
Destroyers (unit of 3): Wnds.3 / 9x shots / R.36" / S.n+1 / superior mobility :: points = n+10

Great - thanks Belphegor, that was sort of how I was looking at the immortal / destroyer thing. My feeling (based on no evidence) would be that therefore the destroyers are probably better against assault armies, and the immortals better against shooter armies. Let me know what you think of this.

The TS has me a little confused. It only allows a roll for WBB if there are no troops within 6", but it is within 12" and there is another same unit on the battlefield. You had 2 spiders to help with splitting the necrons for objectives. Have I mis-understood this? It seems to me the this benefit only occurs if the unit gets wiped out (because otherwise there are still troops within 6"). Then they would still get WBB rolls. In this situation, the ones which come back would join the other unit in the battlefield?
Are the TS any good in combat ? If ther are no vehicles are they still good to have.

The other point (and really my main concern) is about CC. You said Bel that if the warriors get in CC there probably wont be a next turn. Bearing in mind with the warriors it would seem I will get a max of 1 shot at 24", then a double shot at 12", then I will be assaulted, how do I survive? Is it all about massacring them before they get to you with these 3 shots? Is this feasible?

The Nightmare shroud looks good, because it gives me a chance of making foes in CC back off - allowing me another chance to rapid fire ... but from asking my mates, it seems the tyranids and orks are pretty fearless anyway and so this won't work on them.

Here's my point of view as a Necron-only player.

It's not that Necrons aren't any good at low point cost, it's that in the long run, they're less fun. If your games remain at 750 for long, you'll quickly realize this.

See, Necrons are already somewhat limited in their choices. They have virtually no customization of their units (Lord excepted), and since they have many units that are close to useless for their point cost, that limits it even more.

Then, you add the fact that to satisfy the basic FOC, you need to spend 460 points. And that's with a naked Lord. At 750 points, that leaves you with 290 points to play with. That's.. Not a lot. So you won't be able to come up with many ways to form up your army that is 1-interesting and 2-efficient. Which will lead to you playing the same exact army, or very small variations of such, again and again. And of course, that also leads to your opponents knowing what to expect, and adjusting in consequence...

So yeah, as a one off or whatever, small points Necrons can be successful, and fun. But I wouldn't want to do it week after week.

To Flecher: on Tomb Spyders
The Tomb Spyder is one of the strengths of necrons in low point lists.

They're a monstrous creature that is 55 points.
Translation: the Cost of a SM Terminator + not quite one space marine.

Use them against low-mid strength assault units & low initiative assault units, generally in pairs.
Also use them to coup-de-grace immobilized and stationary vehicles.

In close combat the unit needs to split their attacks against specific Tomb Spyders, before hits are rolled. Since they are separate units.

Make a single scarab swarm during your first turn.
This allows the unit (thus the Tomb Spyder) to receive cover saves if you hide the swarm (via standard unit/cover rules).
Which effectively makes the swarm a T6(3) model & allows you to allocate a AP1/2 wound to a model with a cSV3+ (remember swarms get +1 to cSv).

They're just made of good and they have multiple functions, and most forces will have trouble dealing with one T6.MC let alone two.
In regards to splitting, yes they would WBB to the remaining unit as per the necron codex.

To Flecher: on Immortals/Destroyers
Mostly destroyers are just better in low point games. (and kill synapse and nobs better, due to S.6)

To Flecher: on Nightmare Shroud
If all your facing is fearless enemies, them leave it out of your list. Against Tau, Guard, Marines, Eldar it does wonders.

To Flecher: on Getting Face Stomped in Close Combat
Slow them down/kill them with a spyder, and walk backwards and shoot more.
Try to find way on the table to maximize your fire.
Stop their rides (destroyers are great at this).
Get good at timing your offensive pushes and defense pulls.
Get used to getting kicked in the face and swept.

By playing Necrons you are playing at a handicap in this edition.
They are an unforgiving army and an uphill climb.
(except in games under 1000 points, then you just own - except vs demons and stealers)
It makes for a good challenging game.

P.S. start in reserve a bunch, it works

Thanks Belphegor, that was some really clear advice which has helped me a lot.

I will probably start with this list (as this is the figures I will have)

Necro Lord Orb, Gaze, Philactery, Chrono (in an attempt to avoid being pushed back and destroyed)
10 x warriors
10 x warriors
3 destroyers
5 scarab swarms

When I get a chance, I will buy a TS (love te figure anyway) and swop the scarabs for the spider.

Very similar to yours (as I am taking your advice). What do you think of the phil and chrono (I will be facing Tyranids first)

Note on the Orb, against Nids it only matters against S.8+ and power weapons.
In the case of nids: Vemon cannon, Barbed Strangler (on a Carnifex) and monstrous creatures in close combat (ie hive tyrants and carnifex).
So if you don't see a significant number of these (ie 2x S.8 V-cannons or 1x S.8 Barbed-S), leave it.

The Phylactery doesn't matter unless the lord dies by himself.
(when it does function, it only has a 33% of functioning)
Since if he died in close combat that the unit split there attacks between him and the unit he is attached to.
This means most likely your unit still has members standing (this is bad), since this most likely means your losing combat and will get swept.
(The Chronometron doesn't work when he's dead.)
A lord swept while down, attached to the unit is removed with his squad.

I think a more solid build would be: Lord (Gaze, Veil of Darkness, D-Field)
It'll help you grab an objective, and get away BEFORE getting charged.
Gaze has an immediate defensive effect, it's just swell.
(pulling out of combat is not something to depend on unless your starting with >15 warriors in combat or have two lords in the squad)
-- and the D-Field is because you'll have a embarrassing 5pt growth

And if you feel you need a Res Orb: Lord (Orb, Phase Shifter, Chronometron)
Phase Shifter: so he can make saves from the Barbed Strangler Carnifex that you couldn't Veil away from punching him in his face.
Chronometron, same reason as the above D-Field - but 10 points.
vs Nids you want to keep your Staff of Light (but remember in the future vs. vehicles it has no Gauss effect)

Wowa - a lot to take in, but great detailed info again - thanks.

Great point about the orb, thanks for that.

Phylactery - if the Lord dies in CC and there are still some members of the squad left - then they get swept and destroyed - doesn't the lord still get a chance to WBB? He doesn't need to within 6" of anyone ........ if there is another group of warriors within 6" of the swept and destroyed warriors, don't they ALL get a WBB roll? (Or I have I majorly mis-understood this) I just thought for 10points it was worth a shot at getting more wounds back (but point well taken about the 33%)

Chronometron - Good point about being dead. I take it you are saying those pesky 'Nids will pick on the Lord and try to kill him off before the rest of the unit - then you won't get a chance to use it for the sweep initiative test?? What is the point of it then? The "Errata" edition for the Necrons seems to specifically point out that this is a benefit of the Chronometron .....

With your build of Gaze, VOD and DF - I take it you are you still talking about having the lord with one unit of warriors?

I'll have a look at Staff of light ....

Thanks again

No problem

A clarified overview of the much argued WBB and sweep:
Step 1: Necrons get charged
Step 2: Necrons take casualties from attacks (they go down, for WBB)
Step 3: Necrons successfully do less wounds to their opponent
Step 4: Necrons fail their Morale check, thus having the strong desire to run - they attempt to do so
Step 5: The Necron's opponents walk after them, catch up and cut them down. (due to inferior necron initiative)
   Including the unit's models that would WBB from the shooting phase and any that would WBB from assault wounds
   Including any characters that were attached during the movement phase before the initiation of the combat
Step 6: Pick up and remove the squad+lord and be satisfied that you were not surprised by this outcome

This is the grand handicap of the necrons in the new addition.
Their points cost reflects their original ability to tarpit and hold, but the series of basic game mechanics that allowed to do so no longer exist.

This is also, generally, why Destroyers are better than Immortals.
Since it is much more difficult to get a successful charge off on a unit that can get a 24" move.

About the Chronometron...
Rule #301: GW often gives bad advice about the units they design.
The Chronometron is there to fill points if you already have or don't want a Warscythe.
(If your group uses Victory points, it's better just to not take the damn thing)

The staff of light is descent for a non-nightmare teleport lord.
20x [S.4, AP5g] & 3x [S.5, AP3] outa nowhere is nothing to snear at

thanks Belphegor.

So you cannot WBB once your unit has been destroyed by sweeping advance? Agggghhhhhhhh !!!
this is far from clear in the rules. I take it this is the comment on p40 stating "the destroyed unit is removed immediately ... no other special rule can rescue the unit ..."

This is an absolute - added to the 25% phase out, how do the necrons win anything 8^)

One thing which may be useful is that the enemy can't sweeping advance a unit if they are already in CC. I guess this is something which the scarabs can help with. If I keep the units small (3) ??

"I think a more solid build would be: Lord (Gaze, Veil of Darkness, D-Field)
It'll help you grab an objective, and get away BEFORE getting charged. "

Again, forgive me for being daft, but don't you lose the objective if you teleport off before someone charges you?
what about the risks of losing half my points to a bad VOD?

on VOD, i'm sure i read somewhere that if you roll scatter it is 2d6-BS. But now i can't find this and it seems to be just 2d6". have i imagined this?

VoD is 2D6" scatter.
2D6"-Bs is the scatter for a template ranged attack.

Being definitely charged by the 2nd or 3rd turn
is worse than risking and bad VoD

VoD for objective grabbing is an end-game action.
and yes, trading an objective your contesting for an uncontested objective is normally a good move

In regards to the scarabs.
They won't help you that much, since your opponent chooses which units he charges.
Since your opponent wants to sweep you, he won't charge the scarabs.

Fletcher: This is an absolute - added to the 25% phase out, how do the necrons win anything 8^)

reiteration:

Me (from above):
Get used to getting kicked in the face and swept.

By playing Necrons you are playing at a handicap in this edition.
They are an unforgiving army and an uphill climb.

This is why I play them. They are a challenge, like a Ninja Gaiden 3 on the NES.

Also phase out isn't an issue.
If you phase out - you were already lost.
That's 75% of your Necrons (which MOST of your army is made of) ie OUCH, MY MOST OF ME!
If you were depending on that 25% that means you were playing for a pyric victory.

Learn & Play better. (and don't get frustrated, you will lose)

OK sounds fair enough.

Thanks for all your help, I'm playing next friday, probably against the Tyranids, possibly Marines.
I will let you know how i get on.

thanks for the advice, i feel like i know a lot more now

No problem, post a battle report.

Going to either go for ...

"Objective game"
Necron Lord (Veil and Gaze)
10 x warriors
10 x warriors
3 destoyers
3 scarab unit
3 scarab unit
(actually 7 points over, if they are OK with this)
(I will try to get these scarabs into combat with units that get too close, pre-empting them charging me (easier said than done no doubt))

or

Necron Lord (Orb and Gaze)
10 x warriors
10 x warriors
3 destoyers
4 scarab unit
3 scarab unit

One "last" question for you.

If you have one of your warrior units in CC with the enemy because they charged you (and have managed to survive to your turn) - is it worth charging in with the other warrior unit in an attempt to finish them off quickly? Or do you leave the unit to it's (probably sad) fate?

Deceiver

11x Warriors
11x Warriors

1x Tomb Spyder

Unless your opponent packed lots of poisoned weapons, there's probably not enough firepower to kill big d.

Hehe - thats vertainly not one I had thought of.

I will try the one I mentioned (because really I need to get used to the different troop types before I try using a God )

But thanks for the advice - may be worth trying some time.

Hehe - looks like a change of plan. I will now be playin either the marines or the eldar. So a much more "shooty" army than I had previously thought.

I will post my suggested army later - but any thoughts on how to tweek the army to handle the shooters?

Well, I played the game - me as necrons vs Space Marines.

Learned a LOT in a small time and really enjoyed it.
I went with the basics in order to learn as much as possible
Necron Lord - Res Orb, Gaze of Flame and scythe
20 x warriors
6 x scarabs
3 x destroyers

He had
2 x 5 tacticals (1 rocket launcher)
5 x Some sort of "jump" troops (can't remember the name)
A Rhino
5 x terminators
5 x snipers (with some item which allowed teleport no error within 6" of them)
1 x some sort of psyker

Scarabs performed really well - and routed the scouts. Then they got creamed by the terminators with power fists. (Lesson learned .... really good .... really maneuverable .... last a decent time ..... KEEP AWAY FROM POWERFISTS)
Destroyers looked great - but I didn't move them very cleverly and they ended up getting shot to ribbons. Unit was wiped out .... no others in 6", so no WBB
Necron warriors - these did really well. Took out the termies without much problem (missile) and did pretty well against the tacticals in CC. I was impressed by their lastability.

We were playing a "capture the flag" type game .....

Marines won by using the psyker to teleport over to my flag just before the game ended. I couldn't reach his flag in time ... so he won by contesting my flag - and me not contesting his.

Good game ... really enjoyed it. Probably should have had the Veil of Darkness though ........ could have ported myself then.