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Went to an RTT today.

Brought the following list:

Fateweaver
Lord of Change
2x 3 flamers
2x 9 horrors, bolt, 1 w/ changeling
tzeentch daemon prince w/ bolt, gaze, unholy strength and wings
tzeentch daemon prince w/ bolt, gaze, wings
tzeentch daemon prince w/ bolt, gaze

Few models, few scoring units...

Round 1:

Objective: Kill Points (mostly)
Opponent: Mixed orks, 1 nob biker unit, 9 zzap guns, 2 big mobs of boyz, 4 koptas

He wins first turn, and uses it to spread his guys out as much as possible, including turbo-boosting the nobs and koptas.

I roll for preferred wave of all MCs, and get the other wave. I try to land the flamers where they can most-likely trade for a KP, but fail to wipe out any of the zzap units. The nobs, while a tempting target, are just spread out too much to make an impact there.

Horrors all shoot at the koptas, trying to open a little breathing space, but fail to kill even one.

On his turn, expectedly, flamers all die, as do 6 horrors from one unit to biker shooting, and the other horror unit is as good as dead, losing a few members to kopta shooting and then locked up in assault with them.

Turn 2, I get two daemon princes from reserve, one of which scatters and is lost. The one that lands throws a few shots at orks, and promptly dies on his turn.

Turn 3, I get the Lord of Change and another daemon prince. I try to land them close enough to each other to mutually support each other, but the LoC scatters off the table. I'm up to nearly 500 points lost scattering (both to 9" scatters, or more). On his turn, the horrors die, and he puts 3 wounds on the lone prince.

Turn 4, I finally get fateweaver, and try to land him to support the last prince, but he scatters off the table. This time, he'll be back next turn. Predictably, the prince dies.

Turn 5, Fateweaver shows up, lands out of range to spawn a grot, and we roll the end of the game. So, by virtue of not getting my last model in until after he had a turn, I wasn't technically tabled.

Into the losers bracket.


Round 2:
Dawn of War, random objective (roll at beginning of turn 4).
Opponent: Mech Guard (vanquisher w/ pask, russ, banewolf, veterans w/ meltas in chim, CCS w/ meltas in chim, Platoon (3 squads in chims, 3 lascannons, 3 autocannons, PCS in chim), griffon, Marbo

He wins the roll for first turn and defers to me. He deploys nothing. I roll for preferred wave, and get it (what a difference this makes).

Turn 1:
I land all but the wingless prince (who scatters onto another prince, but goes into reserve), and run them all into Fateweaver's bubble.

He brings everything in, illumitates fateweaver with a spotlight, and unloads his army into him. He takes one wound, but makes his leadership test. He bubbles guard w/ a commisar in front of a lot of vehicles.

Turn 2:
I get a flamer squad and a horror squad. Flamers toast an infantry squad caught outside a chim (he put the autocannons and lascannons into chims, so had the owners of those chims outside. I blow up a couple of tanks and engage fateweaver and a prince with the blob squad. Tried to spawn the commissar but failed. Daemons assault other tanks.

On his turn, he kills the flamers and horrors, but nothing else. Fateweaver and a prince keep hitting blob squad.

Turn 3:
I get the other flamers and horrors. They land fairly inconsequentially. My MCs continue to blow up tanks. Fateweaver again fails to spawn the commissar, but after combat, only the commissar remains.

Marbo shows up and he and the russ combine to kill 6 of the remaining horrors - with only 3 left, i need to keep them alive for when we figure out what the objective will be. Fortunately, I'm able to move fateweaver back to protect them.

Turn 4 and beyond:
We roll that the objective is to have the most scoring units within 12" of table center. My horrors are already there.

Fateweaver fails to spawn Marbo. MCs break open the Russ and the rest of the chims on the right side of the table. All that's left is three chims on the right with scoring models. He fails to do anything as fateweaver protects. As they sweep around, I get the perfect rolls as princes pop chims with bolts and are able to assault the guys who fall out. That pretty much wraps it up, and turn 6 sees the vanquisher removed as well.

So I'm 50/50 here.

Game 3:
4 Objectives, Spearhead deployment
Opponent: Imperial Fists (Lysander, Libby w/ Null Zone, 10 termies w/ cyclone launcher (with lysander), 5 assault termis (2 shields, 3 LC) w/ libby, tac squad, two scout squads. 10 Devastators w/ 4 plasma cannons.

Null zone is going to suck... As is the trend, I lose the roll for first turn, and have to go first.

Turn 1:
I get my preferred wave and get all the winged daemons into the bubble, and a little more than 24" from the libby. It keeps me from shooting much - I drop 7 of 10 scouts who were in the open.

He moves the librarian closer, and starts shooting stuff. I fail to realize that null zone is a 'beginning of turn' effect, and so when he remembers it, halfway into the phase, I let him have it. He puts a wound on fateweaver, and I boxcar the Ld test. Not good.

Turn 2:
Two horror units show up, and I try to put them back to save them for the objectives. One scatters out into view though. I'm able to get the two winged princes into combat with the libby's unit, and drop the lightning claw guys and one hammer guy. Librarian survives though.

He shoots up the one horror unit that deviated, and they're gone. He then tries to use null zone. I ask if it can be used while the librarian is in combat, and this is when I read it realize that since it's not the start of the phase, he shouldn't have had it the previous turn either... :( In combat, we all bounce off each other.

Turn 3:
I get a unit of flamers, who land in position to flame lysander's unit. They drop four termies. My Lord of Change shoots and charges the tac squad, and my foot-based prince fights his last scout unit. If these go well, that'll be his scoring units. Assault leaves just the libby in combat with two princes, and 5 tac marines locked with the LoC, three scouts locked with my Daemon Prince.

He does null zone first this time, then proceeds to drop the flamers. Lysander's unit charges into the librarian/prince combat. I put all the attacks on the librarian, who finally dies, but 18 powerfist attacks are too many and both princes die. LoC forces the last two marines to run, but cannot catch them, foot prince kills the rest of the scouts. I leave the LoC close enough to the marines to prevent their rallying, and another 8" should see them off the table.

Turn 4:
Flamers show up, and kill all but one termie and lysander. I then make the mistake of having the LoC shoot the termies, hoping the bolt of change will drop one, while the two tac marines run off the table. He doesn't kill a termie...

Lysander splits from his buddy and gets both a 6" terrain move and charge, to make it to my horrors. The buddy charges the flamers, and is somehow killed by them. Lysander kills 4 horrors, and another two die to combat res - three scoring models left, and they've been pulled off the objective. The two rallied marines, and the plasma devs force the Lord of Change to take 5 saves, and he dies (3+ save :( )

Amazing turn for him, and the game just went from a probably win to a probable draw.

Turn 5:
I put my last MC into lysander. This continues until game end - Daemon prince makes lysander make three saves, which he does. Lysander makes the horrors make saves, which they do. Seriously, we go through four combat phases with no damage done. My flamers go after the plasma devs, get 14 hits and kill 4. Not enough...

With my horrors safely locked in combat away from an objective, his two remaining tac marines make it the full 24" from board edge to objective in two turns. At the end of turn six, he got them there, and wins, one objective to none.


I wanted to try the tzeentch-zilla list, and now that I have, I don't think I will again. There's way too much depending on luck to get it to work, and when fateweaver dies, or just doesn't show up, it feels really fragile (although I'm sure my 2nd round opponent would disagree).

Bummer about the bad scatters. Good report though. Your conclusions about Tzeench zilla are good for me to hear, since I have been contemplating that kind of list for a while.

I'm beginning to think no demon list is worth playing in a tournament.

Oh I don't know about that. I think that a lot of the mixed builds do well.

One problem is the potential for spoiler matchups. The guy who has his mystics and inquisitor allied in, and powers like null zone mean that you can get stuck with an awful round.

But, apart from that, you have a lot of powerful units available at decent prices. I just didn't use any of them

adam_gipson wrote:I'm beginning to think no demon list is worth playing in a tournament.

Daemons have the potential to be devastatingly powerful. The only problem is how random the army can be with reserve rolls.

I actually decided to go with bikes for the Wild West Shootout rather than tzeentch daemons but one of the major reasons is that people get bitter when you beat them with daemons and in a tourney (other than 'ard boyz) that affects your total score.

Sounds like a rough day with the dice!

It's rough, but I think it's a fatal flaw with most of the fate-weaver, or high cost unit builds for daemon armies. I really feel an msu tactic is the best. It allows you to lose a couple of units per game without it seriously affecting your plans.

I'll be taking my Tzeentch daemons to a tournament here at the end of the month we shall see how they fare.

The fact that there are a few *very* hard counters to demons means they will never be competitive.

I wouldn't throw the towel in on the army yet. So you had a few bad games. It could have easily gone the other way.

G

I applaud you for trying something besides Fatecrusher.

Thanks for the report, I was wondering how your games went with your new mono-god list that I hadn't seen before.

New models look really cool in person (like avatar pic).

You took those bad scatters and slight rule probs in stride, good on ya!

- Blackbone

How'd your games go?

Quote:

The fact that there are a few *very* hard counters to demons means they will never be competitive.

UnQuote:

You miss them winning 'Ardboyz last year? Sigh...

Good job Red, I've taken out my Khorne Daemons again recently. Its easy to forget just how hard they hit, and how tough the crushers/Heralds are.

One thing I've been trying out recently is the Masque. 2 games so far and better than a HoK in either one. Give her a shot in your khornate list, let me know how it goes.

To be fair, there is more anti-daemon available now than at 'ard boyz last year.

The Marines hadn't been well explored at 'ard boyz last year, and we're seeing more Null Zone now. It seems to be the standard librarian power for people running a librarian.

The new Guard army adds another potential screw-over in the form of the advisor who messes with your reserves - and can still ally with an inquisitor if they feel they need even more.

I have no doubt that, had I run crushers and stuff yesterday instead of the zilla list, I'd have scored considerably more points. Crushers don't fear nob bikers, and they don't fear terminators... But, I'd done that already, and I like trying new stuff.

I've run the masque in an all-slaanesh list, and she is pretty fun. I'm starting work on my last of the four now though, the nurgle daemons. If everything goes to schedule, I should be able to bring them to the October event (I have to miss the September one as I'm going to the Bears-Steelers game)

Agree with Redbeard. A lot more anti-daemon options have surfaced since that last 'Ard Boyz. If people at the recent RTT's have any inkling of facing competitive Daemons, they have plenty of solid options to choose from to knock them down to size easily.

Again, props for trying out new configurations as you collect all the different flavors. You could've easily brought your Crushers with Fateweaver, but brought the mono-list that you had just painted up.

I won't do a big summary of my games here, but I brought Abaddon in LR with Berzerkers, lash Sorceror, buncha CSM, 2x2 Obliterators.
Game 1 vs. pretty normal CSM - draw.
Game 2 vs. dual lash prince CSM - minor loss.
Game 3 vs. all-skimmer Eldar - draw.

Will definately go to next month's despite usually getting my butt kicked.

- Blackbone

Ugh. I've played all Tzeentch daemons a lot and can truly relate. I'm 10 successful and 9 failed DA rolls in tournaments so far, part of the reason why I started using them more for Fantasy than 40k..

As for anti-daemon options, there is a lot more anti-Tzeentch stuff than anti-khorne. Psycannons and incinerators really hurt Tzeentch with their better invuls / rerolls with Kairos.. but they don't work nearly as well against Khorne stuff who just get armor saves from it. Null zone also isn't as good against Khorne because of said armor saves.

Only the HQ's and crushers have armor. Everything else will be raped by the librarian that never gets out of the land raider.

I think in the right hands daemons are still by far the most powerful. They can counter any other list out there. Everybody was spouting how IG was going to be so uber over daemons but it has not happened yet.

The Tzneetch list is very cool but not that competitive. I would not use it draw any major conclusions in regards to the viability of the race overall.

G

Nice Job anyway.

I'm a little confused on the last report, you say that the two tac marines run off the table then they rally X.X?

No, I thought they would run off the table if he rolled a 9. He rolled a 7, so they were at the very table edge, but then I wasn't 6" from his models anymore, so they rallied. And somehow made it all the way back to the objective.

Redbeard wrote:No, I thought they would run off the table if he rolled a 9. He rolled a 7, so they were at the very table edge, but then I wasn't 6" from his models anymore, so they rallied. And somehow made it all the way back to the objective.

Ahhhh that sucks!

Khorne is still the most dangerous Daemon list IMHO, however the basic marine codex has all the counters to daemons you just have to find them.

Dreadnoughts stop Crushers cold. Bloodcrushers can get stuck in combat with a dreadnought and stay there for most of the game. Those Crushers will surround the Dread with their big bases and keep everyone away from the fight. Meanwhile the lone Rending Crusher (not always present though) is madly trying to roll a 3+ followed by a 6, followed by a 5+ to get a pen roll which better be another 5+. That's a lot of high rolls to make all at once.

Assault terminators in a land raider are used to hunt down the Bloodthirster or other greater daemon who shows up. They have the invulnerable saves to survive the initial onslaught and deliver a few dents with thier thunderhammers.

The Thunderfire cannon can deliver 4 str 5-6 pie plates from across the board directly into massed daemon troops. 12-14 wounds from one firing is not uncommon if the daemon run roll isn't a 5-6. The str 5 air fragmentation blast denies the daemons precious cover saves and makes thier demise much more likely.

Attack bikes have mobilty and the right heavy weapons to deal damage to every daemon unit while dancing just outside of charge range. MM attack bikes can rip through Soul Grinders and heavy bolter attack bikes can cause serious damage to the Daemons precious troops.

The Null Zone is the absolute killer daemon ability which makes everything work. Let the Libby ride in a Land Raider for mobility, protection and an increase in the powers area of effect. 10 wounds from a Thunderfire cannon turns into 10 dead bloodletters with Nullzone around. Bloodthirsters will lose every wound that is inflicted by ap 1-2-3 weapons such as missiles, multi-meltas (MM attack bikes) and lascannon fire since it needs to reroll successful 4+ invulnerable saves. That makes the assault terminators job that much easier.

I will say the marine list needs to have the right units to be very successful against daemons, however the units I listed above can be successful against most every other army in 40k and are not exclusively anti-daemon. Assault Terminators, Attack bikes, Land Raider, Librarian with null zone, even the thunderfire cannon. All of these are good units to take in an all comers list and excellent when used in combination against daemon lists.

Null Zone doesn't work against cover saves, and in CC, you should be butchering the enemy if you are Khorne. Just keep the dreads away from your crushers.

I would think you have less to fear from Marines then you do for CSM's spamming dreads and defilers, as most marine players don't spam dreads.

whitedragon wrote:Null Zone doesn't work against cover saves, and in CC, you should be butchering the enemy if you are Khorne. Just keep the dreads away from your crushers.

I would think you have less to fear from Marines then you do for CSM's spamming dreads and defilers, as most marine players don't spam dreads.

Null zone doesn't work agianst cover saves, but the Thunderfire cannon denies cover saves. In tandom that combination can decimate daemon troops. 2 Dreads can cover the marine lines. Marines shold be that spread out to begin with. The Marine fast movers, Attack Bikes, Vehicles, can spread out a little because when they contract they won't lose much ability, but footsloggers (the meat and potatoes of the marines) should be well confined as the daemons drop to prevent being singled out and destroyed. In that regard, two Dreads can cover the lines and protect them from Bloodcrushers. If crushers drop to far away from the lines where the dreads can't get ot them, then the crushers aren't close enough to do anything to the marines and can be ignored.

I am somewhat amazed you didnt take 2 small units of screamers.
They may seem pretty piss poor at 1st, but a good save mixed with jetbike movement and melta bombs means highly mobile anti-tank units.

By the sounds of it you had some evil dice rolls which made things alot worse (daemon players nightmare)

I made the mistake of trying out some new units a few days ago.
Took 2 med sized units of flesh hounds in my khorne army, and as i had 1st thought, they suck

All in all i would say dont throw in the towel yet, give them another go and tweak the list a bit more, and better luck with the dice

JD your advice never ceases to amaze me.

Okay sure you can build a list that has all the daemon counters but then it will inevitably lose to everything else. Daemons are still the top army but the fact is most people are uncomfortable with an all deep striking army. On the flip side look how much success Cent has had with them.

G

GBF, i was simply suggesting a unit, that was all.
Not only that, but i suggested a unit i have had alot of fun using, and they have done well.

As for cent, his army painting blog alone was a large amount of success in its own right.

I intended my comment as a compliment.

: )

you always bring another viewpoint that I'm not expecting. I like that as it helps me to broaden my perspective.

G

The problem is that all of the things that are impossible for demons to win against aren't all that bad against everything else. I don't know why anyone would ever not take a librarian with null zone. It makes those expensive TH/SS terminators and seer councils drop like flies.

"impossible for demons to win against"

Daemons won the 'Ardboyz last year. They were the second most popular army at the Invitational.

In the tournament scene, Daemons are a fully competative army. I've certainly crushed enough mystic-gunline lists to be know the dance.

Here's what never gets mentioned in these threads. The Daemons get to choose where their units deep strike.

I'll say that again. The Daemon Player chooses where he deep strikes.

The only way a Daemon player loses an objective mission to an "anti-Daemon" army is if he rolls a 1-2 on his Daemonic Assault roll.