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HQ:Captain, Bike, Relic Blade, Shield.
T- 8 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bike.
T- 8 Bikers, 2 Meltas, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bike.
T- 8 Bikers, 2 Flamers, Fist, Hvy Bolter Attack Bike.
FA- 3 MM Attack Bike.
FA- 3 MM Attack Bike.
FA- 3 Hvy Bolter Attack Bike.

1490/1500.

Captain: I will have him WYSIWYG, so shield is a must even though he's a bit of a points sink.
Bikers are arranged to be flexible all-comers.
The FA attack bikes offer expendable focused firepower.

Now I'm expanding out to 1850.

I'm having trouble fitting in something worth 360 points. It seems my biker list just 'fits' in at 1500, and adding anything doesn't seem to help it alot.

Things I do need:
-Counter attack (real cc muscle).
-LOnger range, medium str, RoF weapons for cover fire.
-A troop unit that can (supposedly) climb stairs...

Some Options I've considered.

Triple Vindi.
Triple Preds.
Triple WhirlWind.
Triple Dreads.
Ass Termies in a LR.
9 Ass Termies hoofing it.
Blinged out Stern in a pod.
More bikers.
20 Blinged out scouts.
Kinda Blinged out Command Squad.
Another Biker IC.
Biker Techmarines.
Witchhunter/Daemon Hunter allies.

None seem to fit...

Of all those options I've tried:
Triple Vindi: I just am never able to hit anything, in addition, I have no armor saturation besides them.
Triple Whirlwind: they were fun, but my gaming group rarely has LoS blocking terrain and it's a bit too specilized vs. infantry.
16 Repentia and mistriss: as fun unit... they sucke up wounds like no bodies business, but yea, they died quickly to passing shots.

What I have been theory hammering was a 9 man squad of Assault terminators, 7 TH+SS and 2 claws.
Their roles include: Army wide cover save, by congalining up front. The next would be running to positions to counter attack.

Any thoughts?

My 7 Cents.

I know that you play the bikers as a shooting only army, and only have those fists for defense. However, a nasty CC biker squad can be a real handful.

I tried playing w/ shooty bikers, and just couldn't make it work. I was too bad at judging 18 inches, and kept getting assaulted, etc. Plus, shooting is just too unreliable. Combat is better- especially since bikers can take a SC that minimizes the losses they will take in combat.

After getting pounded repeatedly, I played a biker list tooled for close combat. Khan and a loaded command squad ( 2 shields, fist, claw, and p weps) and a generic captain with another massive attack command squad.

Especially in smaller points ( I played at 1500, where this was the majority of my army) this force is brutal. Furious charge and hit and run for a biker assault unit are what make Khan, not the outflank. Loosing combat tactics sucks, sure, but with an assaulting biker army it becomes a non-issue, since you don't really want to fall back all that often.

The decapitate attack on Khan is ridiculous. In one night at the club, he took a master of the forge, a Necron Lord with warsythe, and my favorite, 3 obliterators in one round of combat. You don't need a librarian because if Khan can wound it, chances are good that he will decapitate it. I had not expected the ID attack to be NEARLY as powerful as it turned out to be.

It would take a total rewiring of how you play, since the whole army now takes a supporting role around these two command squads. However, I found it to be worth it since those twelve models are so dangerous. Getting a turn three simo charge into 4-6 units with these guys is EASY, and Khan's target will likely evaporate, while the other command squads quarry clings to life.

The best part is being able to avoid that whole paradox of your army being best where it is the most vulnerable, ie within twelve inches of the enemy. With this list, the baddies are too busy worrying about being beheaded by the Khan to launch a meaningful assault on the troops section, in my experience.

Don’t get me wrong, many of my games end up in combat, it’s just I mainly shoot as much as I can.
Bikers can be beefy in combat (with respect to relative durability).

CC bikers (meaning: command squad bikers really) is nasty, not can be…heh. But I was looking more to expanding the list list I already have.

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[q]since bikers can take a SC that minimizes the losses they will take in combat.[/q]
I don’t get what this is supposed to mean.

SC = Special character?
If you mean khan he doesn’t affect the bikers’ durability directly.
Indirectly he makes them hit faster and harder, but other than that, the return hits are coming (before we take anyother defensive bonuses into account ie T5/powerarmor/FNP).

See, I just don’t see that many points into 5-6 member squads that good of a pay off. Small arms will snipe people off, while anything in combat with a fist equivalent will kill guys off.
If storm shields are thrown in, it’s even more expensive though durable.

Then you have the issue of combat itself: you want two round combats not one. With a tooled command squad + khan it’s most likely one round, then you get shot in the face.

I frequently run 30 plague marines, they drop….5-6 bikers will as well.

There is no doubt that Khan has his upsides, the hit and run is IMO, the best part of khan, but it’s so……….. not a team player. I mean, all that power is consolidated into that one squad. I’m in the boat that you want something were the whole army benefits, Khan is the opposite of army wide benefits….as combat tactics is lost (as you say), while outflank is kind of lackluster when you have an army of bikers.

Now the only unit of worth with outflank from khan is asstermies in a LR/C/R….but I’m not getting into that.

That UNIT is brutal, but as you allude, there’s little left of the rest of the army, ending up more of a trick pony ( I won’t say one trick though).

I’m meh on Khan’s attack, most likely he’ll be hitting at troops.
Master of the forge: well, he has no inv and only 2 wounds…..so he would have died to normal attacks anyway.
Necron lord: well taking a T5/3+/FNP unit with power weapons vs. Necrons…./shrug, almost insult to injury to them.
Oblits: so you rolled 3 6’s on 3ish hits /shrug, plus he should be going for troops IMO, kill point missions aside that is.
[q]since the whole army now takes a supporting role around these two command squads[/q]
I don’t know, that is something I want to avoid. I’m not into uber squads that max out on 5 members really. Model count is important to me with squads.

Target saturation is good and all.
Hit and run is where it’s at, the other command squad seems…meh. I think another captain is overdoing it, maybe a chappy.

Khan gives H+R/FC.
Chappy gives RR to hit and fearless.

/Shrug, I was looking more towards expanding my list out, the CC biker list is something I’ve tinkered with, but I ultimately went the opposite direction.

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More to the point I was thinking of adding 9 Ass Termies to the list, slogging it. You think there’s any merit to their inclusion?

My 7 Cents.

I like having the two command squads because the combined charge is where it is at. Khan will vaporize anything he touches, sure, so you charge two squads at once. I understand this isn't always an option, but realistically, it usually is. Two squads like that bombing into an army will eat 4 squads in 2 turns. There isn't a marine army out there that can survive that.

I think a lot of my lists success is due to my meta- all marines, chaos, necrons and tau. The outflank is tough against tau, and those dual captains deleting half an army every game turn is mean to the marines.

I don't like footslogging termis in this list. Timing becomes really weird. You probably deploy them on the table, but if you deepstrike them it is even worse. The two speeds at which the army moves makes things a lot more complex, making a finesse army even more so, since now not everything is constant. It is a good way to break up castle and deal with the multi floor issue though.

I feel that termis are a strong addition but only if you are taking a librarian with the teleporter power and terms. Have you tried that yet? I don't think that loosing conga line bodies is that important compared to being able to warp around the board. That works better with standard terms than ass terms though.

I think that an uber command squad would fit in here. The main reason I think is that just because you so heavily lack a good solid CC unit. When faced with something like a seer council you just need something that won't fold like a house of cards.

A Librarian on a bike could be great fun and help you get around invuls/Lash/etc. Triple dakka preds is also cheap mobile firepower. Even if its not alot of tanks, anything shooting that can hurt them is something not aimed at your bikers.

EzeKK wrote:I think that an uber command squad would fit in here. The main reason I think is that just because you so heavily lack a good solid CC unit. When faced with something like a seer council you just need something that won't fold like a house of cards.

Bingo. You can get a ~300pt Command Squad. Upgrade the bikes in each squad to Multi-meltas. You could then just go for a few squads of Heavy Bolter attack bikes for good ranged firing. At 24", you get 3 TL Bolter and 9 HB shots, which is good. I would toss in Plasma on one troop choice, because they are relentless and can always rapid-fire. Good vs. TEQ and MCs.

Just some thoughts.

@Silverthorne:
A combine charge will kill something, but isn’t the whole: 2 round combats, the king these days.
Even with all the defensive buffs, taking shots in the face is a quick end.

Yes, the termies are weird, no doubt.
I will not deepstrike them, unless it’s dawn of war. I can choose a relatively quiet side and run a bit. Not ideal…. But hell, I used a mob of repentia….should be an indication that I try a lot of things.

I am enthralled at this:
[q]The two speeds at which the army moves makes things a lot more complex, making a finesse army even more so, since now not everything is constant.[/q]

I think I need to explain how the termies ‘fit’ in as they seem to always jump out at me when I list all the options I am considering:

In non-dawn of war: they do the conga line, esp. when I feel going into reserves is not beneficial to me (it happens sometimes).
Cover saves abound.
First turn, they move up and run forward. Bikers move/turbo between them.
The termies are then tasked with counter attack and area denial.
Now…. I don’t have to approach the enemy at full speed, and it’s usually the case I won’t… so the termies won’t be that far behind, and I’m assuming the enemy would get crazy close to me more towards turn 3-4, which gives the termies enough movement to realistically do counter charging.

In addition, with the conga line, it gives some breathing room for combat tactic..ing bikers to fall back.
One consistent thing I’ve seen is an opponent running something in the backfield and escorting stuff that I can’t effectively kill with shooting. With the weird movement distances the fallback should bring them within the terminator bubble.

Something like that…
I haven’t had too much on the board exp. with this, but I’m hoping to make it work, or at least see how far it goes.
You think it’s viable at the semi-competitive level?

---___---

I did tinker with the libby, but the most I’d use it would be once…. After the initial conga line to get close…but….you’d rarely use it again as each time you use it, it’s next to impossible to ever get a charge off.
Though you can do area denial in a flash it’s really localized, and wasting another good conga line.
I suppose the libby just conflicts with how I was thinking of using the termies.

@EzeKK: No doubt about it, I do lack in a coup d’etat unit. It lacks in that, but the bikers can drive up open up with Tlbolters and special weapons and then follow up with a charge. Certainly not as shiny as a command squad, but still lots of dice to roll.
Funny you should mention a seer council…they have surprisingly not been a problem for me.
I generally keep my army together and focus fire, and that really annoys a seer council, overloading the fortune is one of the (seemingly) legitimate ways of dealing with them….not great but it works in my experience.

I’m not saying it’s the only way or that it works all the time, and I realize I am missing out on the combat goodness.

What I am concerned about (should I get the command squad on bikes) is the low model count.
Sure they have a variety of saves and such, but I can’t get past that 5 members is the max it goes (attaching IC’s aside).



@jmurph:
A libby would be nice for the utility, hood, null…and then I can’t choose between Avenger and Might.
Avenger is nice coupled with biker movement.
But
Might allows the libby to act as a ‘second’ relic blade captain. Should they join the same squad that’s 8 Str 6 attacks on the charge.
But libby’s seem so nerfed compared to the past and Chaos sorcs though…

I would call dakka preds cheap firepower, but mobile wouldn’t be the adjective I’d use. More like, “full potential when static, sadness when moving 6”. I agree, that’s what’s good with TARGET saturation.

It’s nice to throw lots of dice, which is what the dakka pred does well, but I’m not sure if it’s what the biker list ‘needs’.

@em_en_oh_pee:
Lets say I go the command squad route.
For a command squad on bikes I’m working with 360.
So after the Command squad on bikes I’ll have 155 left to gear up stuff.

I will not be changing the weapon load outs on the bikers though, they will stick with hvy bolters.
The MM goodness is concentrated on MM AB’s as they can commit fully to tank hunting.
The Bikers remain flexible with their hvy bolter AB.

As for plasma, I personally loath plasma weapons. ALL special weapons benefit from bikers, I know what they can do with them.
One option was an additional bike squad:

8 bikers, 2 plasma, Fist, MM AB, they can all start shooting at 24”, then get benefits at 12”, etc.
But I find the extra bikers really congest the board. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but somehow it feels a bit too crowded.

My 7 Cents.

Plasma is good against TEQ, its worth it on a single squad if you have extra points. HBolter bikes in squads I found inferior through testing. MMs were always more useful, but that might just be my metagame.

I find the HB AB are great buys for the bikers.
They have the extra wound to 'absorb' one non-instant death wound to 'save' a biker.
It ends up you paying 20 points per T5 3+ wound. A great buy IMO.
The hvy bolter adds to the weight of fire that the bikers are more geared toward (ie infantry).

Now the MM in squads is nice, combat squads or not. But it's an issue of flexibility and specilization. I already have meltas on them, so I'll diversify with having hvy bolters. THey can do standoff shooting a bit better than MM ABs in the squad...and the targets they shoot at are usually out of the damage range for bolters.

In addition, I cater a bit toward the local soft scores.....we don't spam one type of anything, or at least we try not to or get slammed with low soft scores and such.

The HBAB are not amazing, I agree, but they mesh well with maximizing what the bikers are really there for whenever I use them.

I find the MMAB in the FAst attack AMAZING... auto-includes for me.
The FA HBAB have been terrible hits... just my dice, but they never seem to want to hit, but they do their job of cleaning up and charge pathfinder/non-combat units.

My 7 Cents.

I would use a binged out command squad to upgrade to 850 points. Not only does this give decent Anti-Assault, but also gives your commander a nice place to sit inside. He is a assault model, and this gives him a unit to join that is about assaults as well. He cannot easily join terminators, or other non-bike units, so this is the best fit for him.

That will leave you enough points for another attack bike as well.