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1 Captain w/Bike, Meltabombs

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/melta gun 1xmeltabomb
1x Attack bike w/MM

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/melta gun 1xmeltabomb
1x Attack bike w/MM

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/Flamer
1x Attack bike w/MM

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/Flamer
1x Attack bike w/MM

Dreadnought w/2x TL autocannon
Dreadnought w/2x TL autocannon
Dreadnought w/2x TL autocannon

Landspeeder w/MM & HF
2x Landspeeder w/2x MM & 2x HF
2x Landspeeder w/2x MM & 2x HF

Predator w/ AC/HB sponsons
Predator w/ AC/HB sponsons
Predator w/ AC/HB sponsons

Basically a very mobile army with a good mix of ranged and close range fire power.
My only concern is if my troops too weak. I haven't used bikers that often and I don't know how long they will survive.

The army looks quite good.
As you said the main question is whether the troops are too weak.
I think this can only be found out by several playtests.

You would have to be careful as enemy armour would target your land speeders and melta armed bikes. Should be an fun force to play with. What chapter would you paint it as?

wuestenfux wrote:The army looks quite good.
As you said the main question is whether the troops are too weak.
I think this can only be found out by several playtests.

Yea, the thing is, I could cut 2 more landspeeders and add an additional bike to all my troops choices. It would hurt the punch of my army a little bit, but could make it more resilent.

Captain looks…meh, I know he’s a points sink, but not even a power weapon?

Dreads: not keeping the DCCW: I find that they support a list so well with a CCW and gun, able to advance and provide some area denial behind the Bikers

Land Speeders are meh. Some people swear by them, and they are like a swiss army knife, but I don’t like speeders that much. But you do have decent armor saturation. My issue with them is that there’s no Vulkan with that weapon load out.
I like the idea of the lone speeder, but not in terms of kill points.
I find attack bikes at home with a biker list, not even one fast attack choice of them?

Preds are cool.

Bikers, all min sized…some opponents don’t like that in terms of list building, others don’t care. In general the bikers look ok.

One note about the whole list in general: cooki-cutter, some people hate that about lists. (specifically, min sized bikers, Dreads, Preds, Speeders….essentially the list).
The list has a good spread of weapons.

It’s a mobile army, but not ‘very’ IMO. ‘Very’ would be redeploying your whole army, now dreads and preds in the list mean you have a walker advance/sniping positions, as well as a bit more static element of preds (can’t move and shoot at 100% anymore).

Bikers =/= combat.
Dreads with 2 range weapons =/= combat
Preds/Speeders =/= combat
Captain w/o combat weapons =/= combat
You see a theme?

Even with all that speed, combat is an issue of ‘when’, not ‘if’. In which case there is no counter-attack and concentrates only on shooting down the enemy.
So what you want to do is shoot at long to mid range as long as you can, only go into short range fights (preferable with you able to charge after double tapping) only when you have no choice (ie run out of moving back space).

Bikers are on the tough side, but not points efficient.

I run an all biker army, and with decent range cover fire, they will start dropping. Don’t forget they are only ld 9, so a couple casualties here and there will result in ld tests….both a blessing and curse really.

But my experience on durability is a bit different including the point of view.
I run 30 plague marines in 3 rhinos in my Chaos list, and I baby them. I’ve seen average cover fire bring them down at decent rate….so T5 is nothing new to me, and know that even with that defensive boost, stuff dies when exposed to whatever fire power that’s on the board.

My 7 Cents.

I would switch the dreads to MM. Better vs. armor and they can fire on the move anyway. Plus, it gives you some more CC support. The bikes look very good. The only suggestion might be to include some power weapons or Pfists so you can go after weaker targets that like to shoot (Suits, etc.). Give the Captain something to fight with! A relic blade makes him into a nasty scalpel.

I wouldn't drop more than one speeder, but would split them into as many slots as possible due to squadron rules.

MM dreads are too close range for this list. I already have plenty of close range fire support. The dreads are used to bolster the long range fire support that is vital for killing transports and fast vehicles early.

I don’t think it’s a ‘need’ in the list for the dreads to participate in that role 100%, even 50% is enough. You have dakka preds for decent cover fire.
Dreads unique role in the army is supporting the troops in shooting and combat, the DCCW is just too good to pass up.
Plus you have no combat ability, having the dreads hovering around is a decent deterrent.

MM’s have decent range, remember, you don’t ‘have’ to be in 2D6 range to make an impact.

I do NOT suggest power weapons on troop biker vet sergeants.
Fist are in the maybe category.

Squadron rules have pros and cons, but I think spreading out is just throwing kill points into the wind.

Agreed on the captain, he needs some loving.

My 7 Cents.

Timmah wrote:1 Captain w/Bike, Meltabombs

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/melta gun 1xmeltabomb
1x Attack bike w/MM

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/melta gun 1xmeltabomb
1x Attack bike w/MM

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/Flamer
1x Attack bike w/MM

4x Space marine bikers 2x w/Flamer
1x Attack bike w/MM

When you buy four squads of 5 instead of two squads of 9 and breaking them into combat squads -- you are paying for 2 extra sergeants. You also lose the ability to have 9 man squads on kill point missions. (Your current list gives up 14) Try it with fewer squads and see how many points you can save.
Putting 2 melta guns in one combat squad, and a MM in the other combat sqaud gives both your combat squads good teeth vs. tanks.
Drop the meltabomb's in the squad, and add powerfists to your sergeants. This helps vs. tanks and 'sealing the deal' as described below.
Give your commander a runic blade or lighting claw. He is the only counter-assault item you have, and so he should be good at it.
After playing a few games, I am a big believer in using plasma over flamers in half my squads. Plasma kills daemon princes, terminators, etc. A few plasma guns go a long way.

Timmah wrote:Dreadnought w/2x TL autocannon
Dreadnought w/2x TL autocannon
Dreadnought w/2x TL autocannon

These do not fit the role of a bike army IMHO. The bike army can re-deploy their entire force by turbo-boosting, and these models make a lumbering run after them.

Timmah wrote:
Landspeeder w/MM & HF
2x Landspeeder w/2x MM & 2x HF
2x Landspeeder w/2x MM & 2x HF

Personally I perfer attack bikes over Landspeeders, but that is not to say speeders are not bad.
Thats just a perference, as I like my models to be lower to the table, and I find the T5, 2 wounds, 3+ save more durable vs. autocannons than AV10. Their also 20 points cheaper each. They do not suffer from the same squadron rules that speeders do.

Timmah wrote:
Predator w/ AC/HB sponsons
Predator w/ AC/HB sponsons
Predator w/ AC/HB sponsons

These are a better fit compared to the dreads, as they can move 12". These are good ones to use, as they can provide good cover fire and are fairly cheap.

Don't underestimate the effect of bike shooting. A squad of 9 bikers, with 2 plasma guns and one MM can toss 14 twin-linked bolters, 4 plasma shots, and 1 MM shot if they are closing on a target. That is a devastating amount of raw firepower that can be generated in one round. If you close like this, you need to be ready to 'finish the deal' and assault any survivors and finish them with your fists.
I was playing a game last week and had a squad of khonre bezerkers close on me. They popped out of the rhino and wanted to charge my army. They were the only enemy models within 15" or so, and I closed on them with one plasma squad and 1 melta sqaud and completely wiped the bezerkers. If there was only 1 or 2 left, I would have assaulted them -- removing the furious charge and killed with with a fist.
Obliviously, only close and fire when you are sure you can finish the deal. Sometimes you get unlucky -- as shown in my last battle report -- but overall you should be able to judge when you can bring 'The Hammer' down.
If you cannot 'seal the deal', then hang back at 24" and shoot long range shots into your enemy.

Bikes are tougher than normal marines, but still die to shooting. A MEQ bolter shot has ~7.4% of killing a biker, vs ~11% of killing a infantry marine. Battle cannons and other large templates are even bigger problems. Plasma and Melta will fry them. You will lose bikes.
You can help to circumvent these damages by using turbo-boost to take down tanks that can drop templates, using cover to give saves vs melta, etc. It's harder to do this, as your bikes don't sit well in dangerous terrain, but if half your squad is behind a fence, you still get to claim cover form it.
Don't be afraid when this happens, even when their 25 points each. The game is won by objectives or VPs, not keeping every precious marine alive. Sometimes you sacrifice marines in order to keep the enemy from keeping objectives, or to slow down the enemy.

I don't like the Dreadnoughts very much in the list. They're the only thing in the army that is not highly mobile, so they feel easy to leave behind and hard to redeploy/keep coherent with the rest of your force. I would consider dropping them all in favor of another bike squad and maybe some power weapons/fists for the bike squads to improve their punch a little bit. That said I also see why they are there, the autocannons are quite versitile. I don't know that you really need the versatility there as you have fast moving melta weapons everywhere in the list already (I count 9 MMs, 4 meltas, 3 meltabombs) so armor of any value seems well covered.

another interesting option to consider could be some podding Sternguard in place of the Dreads. This is a unit that can be really powerful if not dealt with quickly so it makes the other player have to make a difficult choice of trying to get the SGs out of the way asap or try to deal with the bulk of your army. Because the rest of your army is so fast moving you can support your Sternguard basically the turn they fall.

I know you have to sink points into el capitan in order to take bikes as troops, so I'm hesitant to suggest a second HQ choice but I think a Librarian (on bike of course) with Null Zone and Avenger could do really well for you. He's versatile and Null Zone is really big against some of the tougher things to deal with at these points levels such as Warlock Councils (biker and otherwise) and Daemons. He also has Avenger to slay MEQs like wild and the Force Weapon can really deal with non-eternal warrior characters.

I like the list a lot and those are just some thoughts I had about possible options

I would NEVER, EVER suggest power weapons on the Vet bike squads.

Why? You can't get +1A on the troop Biker vet sergeants...

Sternguard are an idea, but they are not any more 'faster' in game than the dreads.
Sure they come in and pwn something, but if you want them to survive and follow through they need support, making you commit earlier, unless you don't mind them dying and not getting any more killing out of them.

The turn they fall is 1. Commiting at turn 1 is a bad idea IMO, unless you have some wierd scenario/mission.

I agree the Libby is the next logical option for HQ.
Adds hood and null zone (esp. with lots of meltas and plasma being thrown around it will help).
If you take might of ancients as well he can be a secondary 'Captain with a relic blade' sort off if you need the CC power.
Avenger is nice too, fast moving template.

My 7 Cents.

No, Sternguard are not faster than Dreads. They are able to better "keep up" with the army by dropping forward, thus not getting left behind. They also don't always have to land straight into the face of the opposing army, so you aren't really forced to commit unit you want to. They also apply pressure early on, allowing you to easier redeploy your force while simultaneously threating important aspects of the opposing army. I honestly have no idea if this is an option worth further consideration but it seemed interesting at first glance, so I mentioned it.

I said power weapons/fists when I should have said fists. I was aware of that at the time I said it, but was attempting to imply that I feel like some sort of CC punch is needed on the bikes. I'm sorry that was unclear.

the Libby's powers would be really helpful, but piling more points into HQ characters that aren't overly difficult to kill is a bit awkward at this points level. Never the less, I'm a big fan of him.

The dreads help to correct the flawa in all biker lists.

Fast vehicles. Your bikes are never going to get in range of a falcon or the like in order to do decent damage to it.

By the time your bikes can pop transports reliably, turn 2, they have already done a lot of their job.

People can move freely outside of your 24 inch range. 1 MM shot from over 12 inches doesn't scare anyone.



The dakka preds do a bit to hamper this mobility of armies but doesn't stop them. However the dreads help to hinder the opponents movement even more, making them easy targets for your bikes.

The dreads are really the backbone of this list. They force your opponent to stay hidden/immobile, which makes your bikes that much more effective.

I don't know about you Timmah, but no one in my gaming group likes staring at 12ish MM even at 24"...

MM on bikers have an effective range of 36"...that's a 36" radius sphere of influence.

I still say they would be more intimitdating if they kept their DCCW.
So they can support them at range, while advancing where ever they need to be to deter the opponent from coming closer.
4 Autocannon shots IMO won't do that, opponents would gladly drive up and pop smoke vs. a dread with 2 ranged arms...
It's the one with the gun and the fist that would make them caution the choice to move forward.

/shrug, different point of view.

My 7 Cents.

labmouse42 and Sanctjud both make very good points. i would agree that pswords are subpar- but you have to have *something* to be able to do something in CC. The captain is the ideal place. PFist sarges are ok. PSwords are the least desirable, but cheaper and better than nothing (barely).

I find the statement that the AC rifleman dreads are the backbone perplexing. The bikes pack most of your real firepower and are very mobile. As Sancjud points out a bike MMs from 36. The dreads are largely useless against anything other than light vehicles. I realize rifleman dreads *do* have a role, I am just not sure how that wouldn't be better filled by, say, some attack bikes or maybe rocket launching speeders (even better range than dreads).

The key to bikes is the speed at which you can redirect massive amounts of firepower onto a target, including AT power, wiping it out completely and largely avoiding enemy force.

Timmah wrote:The dreads help to correct the flawa in all biker lists.

Fast vehicles. Your bikes are never going to get in range of a falcon or the like in order to do decent damage to it.

I find autocannons sub-par for taking out falcons and AV 12. Glancing on a 6 just does not seem like odds I want to take.

For the same points two of those dreads, I would take 5 MM attack bikes. With a 36" effective range, thats enough STR 8 shots to down quite a few tanks. If they get within 12" of a tank, like a LR, then its really going to be toasty time.

Guys, he has 9 move 12" and fire multi-meltas in the list. Advocating taking more is ridiculous.

I would love it if I played a list with 12 MMs, because I've switched to bubble wrapped dueces and dettas in my guard army, and all I'd have to do is kill 3 dakka predators to be glancing only.

Timmah's meta has probably already shifted so heavy mech that people are flooding their lists with multi-melta. That makes people use infantry pushback like kroot, platoons, and scouts. Those armies are hurt only be cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons or aggressive CC.

Timmah, I think you're pushing it with the troops. But I think that can work. Just play them conservatively, don't ever commit them to a situation where they can get locked in combat with anything. I don't think you need their meltaguns either. Could switch them to flamers buy meltabombs for the sarge and then spend 10 points on the captain (does that even buy anything?)

Dropping the meltaguns would help me remember not to commit them to something dangerous (like getting within 6" of a loaded LRC to kill it. )

Great list! Really shooty! Looks fun to play against and with, and has serious teeth.

Shep wrote:Guys, he has 9 move 12" and fire multi-meltas in the list. Advocating taking more is ridiculous.

I would love it if I played a list with 12 MMs, because I've switched to bubble wrapped dueces and dettas in my guard army, and all I'd have to do is kill 3 dakka predators to be glancing only.

Timmah's meta has probably already shifted so heavy mech that people are flooding their lists with multi-melta. That makes people use infantry pushback like kroot, platoons, and scouts. Those armies are hurt only be cheap lascannons, cheap autocannons or aggressive CC.

Timmah, I think you're pushing it with the troops. But I think that can work. Just play them conservatively, don't ever commit them to a situation where they can get locked in combat with anything. I don't think you need their meltaguns either. Could switch them to flamers buy meltabombs for the sarge and then spend 10 points on the captain (does that even buy anything?)

Dropping the meltaguns would help me remember not to commit them to something dangerous (like getting within 6" of a loaded LRC to kill it. )

Great list! Really shooty! Looks fun to play against and with, and has serious teeth.

Yea, more flamers would be nice. I am not quite sure how I feel about having all the bike squads the same vs having 2 different. Ofc a multi melta shot followed up by a melta bomb could do the trick vs most vehicles and the melta guns might be overkill.

The only other thing that would be interesting is to cut 1 more speeder and add kor'sarro Khan. I am not sure how good outflank for 4 bike squads would be. (ofc it would give me a souped up commander, like everyone wants.)

@Timmah
Even if you take Khan, you don't'HAVE' to outflank, it's not always advisable.
In addition, regular reserves is good enough for the basic purpose of using reserves.

@Shep:
Sadly my 40K lingo has fallen behind.
Bubble Wrapped Dueces.
Dettas I know are vendettas, which are amazing.

My 7 Cents.

I don't really like the Dreads personally. They don't really fit with the Mobility of the Army.

Why not a Landraider and some Terms w/ TH and SS?

My problem with that option is the Egg Basket image of it.
It's a tempting option. Great counter/charger combat squad with the best combat transport we can buy, but it's just so many points there, and bikers are not exactly points efficienct.

Also the model count is low already, the termies/LR makes it lower.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:@Shep:
Sadly my 40K lingo has fallen behind.
Bubble Wrapped Dueces.
Dettas I know are vendettas, which are amazing.

Sorry,

bubble wrap = stubborn platoon
duece = medusa

I started playing IG and was hot and heavy for mech vets, devildogs and executioners. I had a blast flooring it and driving right at my opponents, it was so un-guard and so effective. Until the multi-meltas started multi-plying. Thats when i realized IG only have BS3 multi-melta (or meltacannon) and their BS4 meltaguns are a LOT shorter range than everyones mobile multi-melta. Then I started losing.

Nowadays, I have reverted to a gunline. I push close range multi-melta away with the bubble wrap, and screen off charges too. That way I can use the slower, but more shooty stuff (artillery and vendettas) to kill transport vehicles and multi-melta delivery systems from range. Then i started winning again.

Timmah has probably faced 'melta counter armies' like hybrid gunline IG/Tau, or any shooty eldar army and wants to make sure he can bring down stuff that is planning to hang out outside of even his 24" mobile multi-melta range and also to quickly put 'crew stunned' on mass vendettas, falcons/serpents, or put some wounds into pathfinders/crisis suits on turn 1 so that he has an army left when his speeders show up on turn 2 and 3.

@Timmah, one of those bike equip loadouts is more effecient, which ever one that is, you should take 4. I wouldn't presume to declare flamers the best, but they very well could be. Or maybe the meltas are. But if one pair is better than the other, then you've got two bike units that are inefficient. If one pair is better versus me than another, I'll only have to kill two to eliminate that threat.

2 meltas followed by a meltabomb could easily open a transport, unfortunately, whatever is inside that transport will probably be equipped to cut through your bikes. That'd be fine if you had tons of bikes, but you are worried about your troop count. Thats all I was getting at.

Yea I think I am leaning towards flamers. I am guessing the bikers will provide a lot of anti infantry fire. Since if you are just shooting meltas + MM you are wasting some small arms fire.

I think the rest of the army will be better suited for killing tanks and transports. Then the bikes can get close and rapid fire/flame the troops inside.

Ill keep the MM over HB's just because the MM do make them a thread to tanks and HB's aren't all that much more effective against infantry (especially MEQ's)

You need to figure out how to work a Librarian into the list so you at least have some protection against Lash; Seriously.

Lash will be a difficult matchup for this list. I would guess my best bet for it would be to try and kill the DP asap.

Throwing speeders at it. However I think its pretty much a loss for this list, though I think I am ok with that.

It I am really concerned about it, out goes 1 speeder, in comes 1 inquisitor lord w/hood + 3 mystics that hide behind a predator all day.

Oh absolutely keep the MMs on the attack bikes. Those are clutch even if just for long range transport take down, and getting 12" away from some stuff is better than 6".

As for lash. If I had a T5 MC that needed to get within 24" of turbo boosting bike squads to do something, and I knew I would have to eat 6 TL autocannons, 3 autocannons and 6 heavy bolters to do it... I don't think I'd feel all that comfortable.

Against lash I'm pretty sure Timmah could just throw his bikes in reserve and outshoot the chaos army. With all of that 48" range, there isn't a great spot for DPs to hide.

If a lash does go off, you are still rocking 3+ cover, and if something manages to charge you off of a lash (which would take some wizard armor saves and aggressive play by the CSM player) then you still have combat tactics.

Drop the Dreads and Preds. Go for more Bikers, going for the max 8 + AB w/ Meltas/Multimelta, etc. Throw in lots of MM ABs for Fast Attack and maybe Vulkan with a unit of Sternguard in a Pod to just give you the whole TL option. I don't advocate small biker units, though.

Shep, do you think dropping a landspeeder to upgrade my commander to kor'sarro is worth it? I'm still kinda on the fence about it.

It seems like having the ability to outflank against certain armies could be big. Especially like static tau/IG.

Ofc then I lose combat tactics, which can also be good especially with so few troops.

Here:

1750pts
HQ:
Captain
w/ Bike, Relic Blade, Artificer Armor, Hellfire Rounds
[190]

Command Squad
- Company Champion
- Lightning Claw
- Lightning Claw, Storm Shield
- Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield
- Apothecary
[310]

Troops:
(8) Bikers, (1) Attack Bike
w/ 2x Plasma guns, Power Fist, Multimelta
[320]

(8) Bikers, (1) Attack Bike
w/ 2x Meltaguns, Power Fist, Multimelta
[310]

(8) Bikers, (1) Attack Bike
w/ 2x Meltaguns, Power Fist, Multimelta
[310]

(8) Bikers, (1) Attack Bike
w/ 2x Meltaguns, Power Fist, Multimelta
[310]

Fast Attack:
(2) Attack Bikes
w/ Multimeltas
[100]

The alternative is to drop the Command Squad for a pair of 3-man Attack Bikes squadrons with Multimeltas.

@Timmah:
Khan doesn't really fit IMO in your list.
You don't have anything to really make the most out of outflank.
The squads Khan can join don't really want to be in combat, won't use FC or H+R if they stay out of combat.........

/Shrug. If you had a max sized biker squad maybe, but there's little he adds besides outflank, which... you can just turbo booost onto the board from regular deployment.

Sure you lose out in a turn to actually engage, but you pay 0 points for it... so you get what you buy.
With Khan you spend alot and don't get much use out of him.

I highly suggest you baby the bikers, I run 27 at 1500 and I find that not enough.
20 at 1850 is, IMO unthinkable unless I use reserves heavily or am a beast at armor/cover saves.

_______________________________

@em_en_oh_pee:
Arty armor is a luxury.
Command squad: i'd suggest a power weapon instead of the lone lightning claw, at least you can still benefit from +1 A.
FA Attack bikes, I prefer full squads.

Biker troops:
No love for flamers? No love for stock hvy botler attack bikes?

My 7 Cents.