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I have always found the current KP rules for annihilation games unfair towards swarm armies. As I'm sure you all know, swarm army squads are much easier to kill due to their lower saves and toughness, along with a low point value. Yes, I know that you can take more units per squad with swarm armies but it may be difficult to fit the exact amount in a certain point game, giving your opponent easy KP points.

My proposed method consists of using the point value of the unit killed rather than just adding another chalk-mark for each squad you gun down. For example, A unit of 10 space marines is 210 points with upgrades. If you were to kill this squad, you would receive 210 KP, instead of 1. The same goes with your opponent's squads. While I understand keeping track of this would be somewhat of a pain, I feel that it would greatly increase the potential of swarm armies.

This is just an idea I was thinking about, I just thought I would run it by you guys....so what do you think?

That sound almost exactly like 4th edition victory points.

Yeah, I liked victory points more anyway though, it seemed much more balanced to me... However we always played that you gained points for each model killed and not per half squad and full squad.

It is better, and it's the natural way to do KP games, by points, otherwise your super kitted out 50-guardsman + commissar + 5 lascannons +5 plasma guns + vox caster + 5 powerfist sergeants is worth as much as my 5-man assault squad.

But as has already been pointed out - this is 4th ed victory point rules, not 5the ed kill point rules.

Now there are three problems with going back to this way of doing things.

1: GW won't admit they screwed up and change it back
2: Alessio Cavatore can't do math and won't write anything that involves hard sums ('cos adding is so difficult...)
3: There is no disincentive in army creation to have MSU's.

Now, no 3 is the genuine one. Objective missions are easier with MSUs and the old VP system also favoured MSUs, so the KP mission has to discourage MSUs.

This was a design decision taken very early when GW wrote 5th ed. Its a laudable goal, but just one theycompletely failed to execute in any meaningful way...

Yes, but in a game played with small divisions such as warhammer, small units should be used. Such small munits, or MSU's, should naturally be better at holding objectives such as a ruined building or a small ridge. I understand that 40k isn't reality, but VP was far more realistic than VP, and VP hurts some armies as well.

They should just mirror how Fantasy handles it: good ole victory points, with various bonuses/adjustments.

-Make it so that you get a small amount of extra VP for every full squad you kill; making MSU a more dangerous proposition, but still a viable tradeoff.
-easily meshes with objectives if you want to do objective/VP hybird matches, making objectives worth X VPs. This keeps us out of that situation we've all seen; I have all my army minus 5 hormagaunts, you have 2 space marines. Since they're on an objective I'm not, you win?!
-I'm sure there a plenty of other options as well, not that I can think of any at the moment

The argument that the math is too hard for VP is rediculous. If you can write an army list, you can calculate victory points (in fact, you already did!). If you can't write an army list, then, well, I don't want to play with you because you might have twice the units you should and not know it

Think about the big picture. It wasnt just VP that changed in 5th, we were given objective missions too.

Armies that have many scoring units, often of small size, naturally lend themselves better to objective missions. In 4th it was much much better to have lots of small units than a few big ones. To counter this KP missions have also been introduced to favour armies with large units and punish those with small ones. So now there is a balance. Rather than all armies taking the smallest units they could get away with people have to think about how they capture objectives and how to reduce KP. Kill point missions also give people an advantage over mech armies, that usually have 50-100% more KP, but would otherwise be unstoppable.

I dont think GW got it wrong. I think they did exactly what they intended to. They even said that they wanted to move the game away from multiple small units, such as 6man las-plas before 5th came out. So you have to bare in mind that if you remove KP, you also have to alter the other missions to help keep the game balanced. There is no point doing one without the other.

Wow, I think Regwon hit it on the nose, good job.

Yeah I didn't think about that.

I agree that they accomplished their goal of punishing small units, but I disagree that such a goal was a desirable one in the first place. Personally small units should have an easier time of things, it's the reason we use fire squads in real life. I've also noticed the armies that can only use larger units are Orks, and Tyranids who should have little interest in capturing things anyways. Besides at major tourneys you go for a tabling anyway so objectives don't matter as much in any serious play.

You also have to consider such things as the various marines/IG that can combat squad/mob up. While not a significant portion of their abilities, these abilities are definitely factored in to their costs, and would be mostly useless in a VP centered environment.

In addition, one of the few things that hurt MSU armies in 4th edition was that if one squad was wiped in an assault, the enemy could leapfrog to another unit and probably wipe it out next turn and so on. Without that consolidation into combat, MSU armies can keep enemies from reaching objectives just by lining up small units throwing bodies at them.

Hit it it on the nose Malecus...

Everyone got some good with the bad in the new 5th ed. and people have adjusted. IMO games have gotten so much more interesting.

I've got to agree on the more interesting games. My friend used to play an army with 3 havoc squads, some static tac squads and a kitted out daemon prince and bloodthirster. With the new codex, he planned to just skimp the prince down to a cheap lord and keep the cheap greater daemon, but take even more guys. If you hunkered down in cover he might not table you, but he'd always murder anyone that tried that in victory points.

Now, with objectives and a single model still being able to take them [and no more last man standing checks] his army can't afford to do that. He's made a mechanized army that depends on support from other units, proper placement, and tactical decisions. Games against him are much more interesting now!

The only thing that I have never understood about 5th is that my rhino (35 points) is worth the same as the devil fish (130 points). I can respect the advances in 5th, but a warfish adds so much more to the army than my rhino. I agree that a simplified VP system would be better. Instead of 1 KP you get the cost of unit that is destroyed.

Something I find bizarre about point allotments in Annihilation , and I'm probably wrong, is the SM tactical squad, which when it combat squads, turns into 2 KPs but as I've heard here the IG super troops don't?

Is that really right? I don't think it is-- afterall, to me, they seem to be multiple units underneath one "troop choice" and KPs work off of units, not a point for each Force Org slot you take off the table.

BUT this leads me to vehicle squadrons which have been a bit iffy for KPs. I'm sure the rule is there somewhere-- but do you have to snuff all the vehicles to get the KP-- or does each one give a KP.

The "super troops" units in IG do basically the same thing as the marines' combat squads, but in reverse. One force org selection purchases multiple units, which would be multiple kill points, but they have the option of mobbing up into one large unit when deployed, and cannot act separately after that point. An easy way to remember the rule (tau and their wonky wargear aside) is that if it can shoot at a different target during the game, it's a separate kill point.

Kill points for vehicle squadrons work just like any other entity - they act as a single unit, they cannot voluntarily split during the game, therefore they are worth one kill point. Then again, they are destroyed by immobilized results, all have to shoot the same target, and --MOST-- of them are easy to kill or damage (war walkers, Vipers(?), killa kans, war buggies, etc), so it's not all that hard to do.

I've always found games with and against MSU armies in 40k to be more fun games. I think it is wrong to try to discourage that style of play.

I also don't think that it's as much of advantage in objective missions compared to the disadvantage it is in KP missions.

Some units should not give kill points (Drones, Spore mines, Gaunt swarms, enemy models that have been turned into spawn.)

I did like the idea of the VP's, plus a bonus for each unit killed.

Unfortunately, if there were units that did not give up Kill Points, people would take advantage of them (i.e. spam, etc).

I do like the fact that at the end of the game, its much easier to tally points, rather than figuring out what is above/below 50%. However, I DESPISE the fact that my 80 point base Devilfish is worth 2 KP's due to Drones I rarely use, and that I must pay 20 more points to make it 1 KP. I wish I could buy it for 56 points minus the Drones point cost...

I wish my 35 point chimera wasn't valued the same as a falcon or land raider. That is really why KP is slowed, what I would like to see is a unit give 1 KP for every 50 points, to a minimum of 1 KP. That would be fair, as MSU's would still give a decent number of kill points, but it would also make it so raider and terminator spam isn't instant wins.

all yall can shut up. if ya don't like the regular gw missions, just play complete annihilation, first guy to table the other wins

SHut up bibbi and get back in your box or the lurels will come and get you. ( just jokeing man giving my rude friend a hard time)

Firstly, I'm dead serious, don't bitch about g.w. missions when it is so easy to make your own.

Kogwar wrote:Shut up bibbi and get back in your box or the laurels will come and get you. ( just joking man giving my rude friend a hard time)

and just so you can be in on our little joke, he plays guard and in one game a squad of 2 Sargents with power weapons two melta gunners and two normal troopers killed about twenty necron warriors in one game, about 3 fell to shooting attacks, so now he calls them the laurels because they are more deserving of the space marine award "the laurels of valor" then some space marine squads

seriously play complete annihilation, it is amazing

BIBBI, there's no real point if you just say to play only one type of mission. The other types add flavor and variety to the game, and fixing them is a far better option than just choosing not to play them.

Masked Jackal wrote:BIBBI, there's no real point if you just say to play only one type of mission. The other types add flavor and variety to the game, and fixing them is a far better option than just choosing not to play them.

OK to correct bibbi they took out like 26 and none of them died they where what was left of a 20 man squad one of them was a vox and they kicked your but a update i my recent game the lurel sarges ( not all the models where in the same squad this time : ( ) took on 4 ard nobs and a ork war boss but lost after two round just two guys booyah( i based the lurel consept not off orf marines but off of the romans since my men are the centrati legionar) and Masked Jackel bibbi is tryign to say if you have a problem don't bitch make your own scenerio it is really easy just get a few friend togeather and make a day out of it.