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If a unit is in terrain(ruins for example) and also has an inherent armor save(Space Marines for example)- does the unit roll two different saves?- one for the terrain and one for their armor?

You only get to roll one save in 40k against any given wound. Double-check your rulebook. It clearly explains this.

Page 24.

Thanks, I don't know how in the heck I missed that giant section in the rules! The rule doesn't make sense to me as it seems that a Space Marine in ruins should be harder to kill than a Space Marine who is not(i.e. no cumulative advantage of armor and terrain as I understand it), but that's the rules I guess.

Think of it as a combined roll if it helps. On a 4+ it hits the terrain and you're safe. On a 3 it bounces off your armor. On 1 and 2 it passes through both.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Think of it as a combined roll if it helps. On a 4+ it hits the terrain and you're safe. On a 3 it bounces off your armor. On 1 and 2 it passes through both.

Well paint me purple and call me Susan, I never thought of it that way. Brilliant!

DoW

What seems odd to me is a situation like a Space Marine Veteran Sgt(or other such figures) with a 3+ armor save. That same marine in fortifications is no better off against regular ballistic weapons than if he was out in the open(fortification is 3+)- that doesn't seem right to me.

Yeah well cover saves do not always mean the terrain stopped it. The Firier might have been distracted, not got a clean shot etc.

That is what the cover save represents.

Gareson wrote:What seems odd to me is a situation like a Space Marine Veteran Sgt(or other such figures) with a 3+ armor save. That same marine in fortifications is no better off against regular ballistic weapons than if he was out in the open(fortification is 3+)- that doesn't seem right to me.

A space marine is better off in cover. (remember that cover saves are not affected by the weapon's AP)

It makes no difference against lasguns (it takes a lucky lasgun shot to get through his armour - a wall to hide behind makes no difference).

However, a lascannon can punch right through his amour like it wasn't there. His only chance against that is to get some cover and try to make himself harder to hit.

It's a dynamic I like - guardsman need to hug cover all the time and if they do it's a big advantage for them. A marine can walk through small arms fire and not care - he only needs to hide from anti-tank weapons.

I have had some trouble buying the choice in saves as well. I play space marines so cover offers no real advantage (aside from ignoring AP of course). However I have played some games where both saves are taken and I thought it worked out pretty well. I dunno, a lot of people say that gives SM an unfair advantage to take both but I like the added realism and the game seemed to still be balanced (I was playing against orks btw).

LtCobalt wrote:I have played some games where both saves are taken and I thought it worked out pretty well. I dunno, a lot of people say that gives SM an unfair advantage to take both

It is absolutely an unfair advantage, because it is an advantage which violates the rules of the game you're playing.

LtCobalt wrote:I play space marines so cover offers no real advantage (aside from ignoring AP of course).

Ignoring AP is a massive advantage over marines in the open. A MEQ squad in cover is much more difficult to dislodge with shooting because of that advantage. The very first time you wind up with a battlecannon or demolisher shot covering all 10 of the models in your tac squad you'll understand why.

-GK

Don't forget that according to the rulebook that the choice of saves goes both ways.

You CAN choose the worse save in situations where you'd like the unit to die.

For example, perhaps you'd like a unit intending to charge your guard squad to stand out in the open rather than charge.

He fires at you intending to soften up the unit.

to his surprise you use your lesser flak armour rather than the 4++ invuln save. This winds up resulting in heavier casualties or a wiped out squad.

Now, instead of charging you and after wiping out the guard in HtH, standing in terrain for a 4++ save, those berserkers are left out in the open waiting for a battlecannon shot to hit them.

...all due to choosing the worse save.

Good call Deadshane, I'd never thought of doing that before.

Thanks!

-GK

Deadshane1 wrote:Don't forget that according to the rulebook that the choice of saves goes both ways.

You CAN choose the worse save in situations where you'd like the unit to die.

For example, perhaps you'd like a unit intending to charge your guard squad to stand out in the open rather than charge.

He fires at you intending to soften up the unit.

to his surprise you use your lesser flak armour rather than the 4++ invuln save. This winds up resulting in heavier casualties or a wiped out squad.

Now, instead of charging you and after wiping out the guard in HtH, standing in terrain for a 4++ save, those berserkers are left out in the open waiting for a battlecannon shot to hit them.

...all due to choosing the worse save.

I have to butt in and disagree here Shane.

Page 24, BRB:
In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.

That indicates to me that you always must use the best save possible in any situation.

Who's to say what the "Best Availiable Save" is?

In the example above, I would say that the Guardsman's flak armour is the "Better" save. Using it results in a situation that can be interpreted as beneficial for the Guard army.

What is a Better save? 3+ power armour or 4++ Invuln? There is no way to know what the "better" save is unless you have a context or a situation to place those armour saves into.

(of course you might be right....but I'd prefer to see the ENTIRE rule before deciding. Don't have my book right now)

Deadshane1 wrote:Who's to say what the "Best Availiable Save" is?

In the example above, I would say that the Guardsman's flak armour is the "Better" save. Using it results in a situation that can be interpreted as beneficial for the Guard army.

What is a Better save? 3+ power armour or 4++ Invuln? There is no way to know what the "better" save is unless you have a context or a situation to place those armour saves into.

(of course you might be right....but I'd prefer to see the ENTIRE rule before deciding. Don't have my book right now)

I would assume Best save means the save that has the best chance of passing, which in the 3+/4++ situation would be 3+ unless it ignores the armour in which case it would be the 4++. You cannot opt to take the 4++ against, say, a AP 6 Wound.

Gwar! wrote: You cannot opt to take the 4++ against, say, a AP 6 Wound.

Not even if the model is wearing carapace armour at a 4+?

Myself I would'nt see why not if the "best availiable save" winds up being the one that kills more models allowing me to hose the berserkers out of a charge into cover.

After all, there is no rules during wound allocation that say you have to put a plasma shot out of a group of rapid fired bolters onto any character in the squad who may have a invuln save. Indeed, you might put any plasma shots on defenseless models rather than take wounds on your character.

(of course I'm arguing intent here, so dont take it seriously. Like I said, I'll look at the full rule in the book when I get home to see how wrong I am/not)

Gwar! wrote:

Page 24, BRB:
In these cases, the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save.

That indicates to me that you always must use the best save possible in any situation.

Have to disagree.

=> " ...has the advantage of always using... "

An advantage isnt a " must use" situation.

Its different for cover saves where you get the better save if you could apply 2 different sources for cover.