Cash for clunkers ending monday.

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**Wrexasaur**

I personally thought it worked fantastically regardless of how the media tried to spin it.

Hmm... I hope I got the whole article in here, tell me if I didn't.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/20/autos/cash_for_clunkers_end/?postversion=2009082018

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The $3 billion Cash for Clunkers program will shut down on Monday, the government said Thursday.

Dealers must submit any pending Clunker deals, including any necessary paperwork, by 8 p.m. ET Monday.

"It's been a thrill to be part of the best economic news story in America," said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "Now we are working toward an orderly wind down of this very popular program."

Officials decided to wind down the program, which Congress passed to spur flagging auto sales, after determining that it would soon run out of money.

As of Thursday, the program has recorded more than 457,000 dealer transactions worth $1.9 billion in rebates.

The Department of Transportation is confident, based on its own analysis of Clunker deals that have been submitted and those that are still pending, that the program has enough money left to continue through Monday night, a senior White House official said.

"We are providing several days for consumers and dealers to finalize deals," the official said.

Under the Clunkers program, which launched July 27, vehicles purchased after July 1 are eligible for refund vouchers worth $3,500 to $4,500 on traded-in cars with a fuel economy rating of 18 miles per gallon or less.

"We expect there will be a flurry of activity over the weekend as the program comes to a close," Jeremy Anwyl, chief executive of the automotive Web site Edmunds.com, said in a statement.

"With a date certain, NADA is strongly recommending that all dealers now focus their attention and efforts on submitting reimbursement claims prior to the looming deadline," said John McEleney, chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association in a statement on Thursday.

Car dealer Brian Benstock, president of Paragon Honda in Woodside, N.Y., said he's already written 200 Clunker deals and will have a big advertising push this weekend to get a few more.

"We're leaving nothing behind," Benstock said. "When it's over its over and we're leaving no dollars on the sidelines."

Car buyers trading in a vehicle must prove that the vehicle has been titled to them for at least a year and, in most states, that the car has been insured for a year.
0:00 /3:10GM's surprise clunker stimulus

Dealers are required to disable and destroy any clunked vehicle so that it cannot be resold.

Dealers have complained that the Transportation Department has been slow to process rebates -- slowing their rebate checks and putting them in a financial squeeze. In response, the department recently hired additional personnel.

The program proved wildly popular, running through its initial $1 billion in its first week and leading lawmakers to approve an additional $2 billion in funding on Aug. 7.

Cash for Clunkers has been credited with boosting auto sales, sparking several automakers to re-open closed plants in an effort to refill ravaged inventories. Industry analysts at J.D. Power and Associates forecast that August retail auto sales, a figure that excludes fleet sales to businesses, will pass the 1 million unit mark, thanks largely to the program. That would make it the first million-plus retail sales month in a year.

"Improved consumer confidence and credit availability during the past six months have combined with the CARS program to lift industry sales out of their slumping year-to-date levels, which have been down approximately 35% year-over-year," said Gary Dilts, senior vice president of global automotive operations at J.D. Power and Associates, in a statement.

Overall auto sales are still expected to be down slightly, mostly due to low inventories hampering fleet sales, J.D. Power said. The company has boosted its overall projected sales for the year due to the success of the program.

What remains to be seen now is where things go from here.

"The effectiveness of the 'cash-for-clunkers' program will be judged in a number of ways, but a key measure will be how does the automotive market respond to the absence of the 'clunkers' incentive to buy now?" said Jack Nerad, editorial director at auto pricing trackers Kelley Blue Book, in a statement.

**Typeline**

Why were people bitching about CARs again? I forgot.

Was it something that looked like it crawled our of Nazi Germany, too Socialist, or was it Communist this time?

**Wrexasaur**

There was problems with car salesmen selling too much... I want that thought to sink in really deeply before people comment on this.

I have been a salesmen and when the boss says sell, guess what you do, you freaking sell. If the boss was actually dumb enough to expect half a million dollars to show up from the government in less than a couple of weeks he was being greedy and delusional.

There has to be an insane amount of reasoning behind this whole plan given how successful it actually has been in it's goal. If the government just started throwing money at these car dealers they could have ran into some very serious issues. There is a process involved in this that makes the car dealers very nervous... but I could honestly care less, they make ME nervous

.

**avantgarde**

It had popular support and actually stimulated so they spun it as being poorly funded and bogged down by the bureaucracy and Congress. Evidence that big government can't run programs.

**Wrexasaur**

The funniest part about this whole anti-government movement is the fact that it really got some support during Bush's administration through the truthers (many of which I feel are funded by corporate interests... shills I think they are called) and pushed through all the way through FOX NEWS... the scariest cable news network since the show COPS.

The government can and does run socialized programs quite well. Consider the fact that we would be completely screwed without a socialized fire dep. and I am not even sure that would be the right term. Consider the madness of privatized police, or no USPS, or no public schools... that, would be insanity at it finest, and the reason I think that most of this anti-government slant is funded by corporate interests.

**Relapse**

Typeline wrote:Why were people bitching about CARs again? I forgot.

Was it something that looked like it crawled our of Nazi Germany, too Socialist, or was it Communist this time?

Here are some reasons people complained in this article.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32497875/ns/business-autos

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Detroit didn't do as well as expected, either.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/212999

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I do like the whole "buy American" angle, since a lot of US auto work is outsourced to other countries where labor is far cheaper.

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Finally:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32334931/ns/business-oil_and_energy/page/2/

**Frazzled**

Yea it worked great. I get to pay so some other loser driving a gas guzzler can get money to buy a new car. Yea thats great.

Its my understanding there have been major problems in actually getting money from the government. 97% of applications come back needing something else (my understanding the original rules book on filling out the app was something like over 150 pages-wo).

I wonder if this actually sunk healthcare legisltation.

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Wrexasaur wrote:
The government can and does run socialized programs quite well. Consider the fact that we would be completely screwed without a socialized fire dep. and I am not even sure that would be the right term. Consider the madness of privatized police, or no USPS, or no public schools... that, would be insanity at it finest, and the reason I think that most of this anti-government slant is funded by corporate interests.

US Postal service is an absolute joke.
Police, public schools, and fire departments are LOCAL, with local control. Public schools are a real mixed bag. Some school districts are excellent. Some absolutely suck. Most metropolitan public school systems failed the Bush standardized testing this year.

**halonachos**

Well and the fact that now people won't be buying new cars as much and the profits will now begin sinking...

**Typeline**

Frazzled wrote:Yea it worked great. I get to pay so some other loser driving a gas guzzler can get money to buy a new car. Yea thats great.

I've always been fine with that. The small drop in the bucket I give in taxes goes to getting people I hate in cars I hate to drive cars I like. So now when they hit me doing 70 I don't die.

**reds8n**

halonachos wrote:Well and the fact that now people won't be buying new cars as much and the profits will now begin sinking...

Have you consideed writing a book on economics, I'm sure it would sell well.

**halonachos**

Yes, yes I have. I call it "Lying with Statistics and Other American Practices.".

Of course if congress promises to buy older books so people can buy my new one, then I would begin selling it.

**Frazzled**

Typeline wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Yea it worked great. I get to pay so some other loser driving a gas guzzler can get money to buy a new car. Yea thats great.

I've always been fine with that. The small drop in the bucket I give in taxes goes to getting people I hate in cars I hate to drive cars I like. So now when they hit me doing 70 I don't die.

Do you pay income taxes Typeline?

**halonachos**

Cash for Clunkers requires the destruction of existing cars so that new cars can be manufactured. But just as the purposeful smashing of windows merely shifts demand while wasting human effort and capital, so does the destruction of automobiles. There are no jobs without capital, and Cash for Clunkers promotes the destruction of capital.

From this article in forbes.

Ford, Lincoln and Mercury sales were up 9% last month from a year ago, the company announced. But these sales might not continue without government funds.

From this other forbes article.

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On the surface the increase in sales and factory production is good news for the Clunkers program. It did it's job. But ,what happens when the money runs out. Already the success of the program indicates monies will run dry before Labor Day. The question is, what happens then? Another concern among care dealers is the time in which the government money finally makes it to the dealers. On Tuesday U-S government officials announced some 1,000 temporary workers will be hired to help get those funds to dealers faster.
In Bryan-College Station, some dealers News 3 spoke to said little money has made it's way to them so far. Paul Atkinson owner of Atkinson Toyota says his dealership has taken in more than150 clunkers. So far Government money has come in to compensate for only a few of them.

Fromhere.

**Kilkrazy**

halonachos wrote:Yes, yes I have. I call it "Lying with Statistics and Other American Practices.".

Of course if congress promises to buy older books so people can buy my new one, then I would begin selling it.

I think Congress should promise to buy older people.

The next stimulus programme needs to be Cash For Drinkers.

**Sgt_Scruffy**

How about Cash for Clunkers: Home Edition. Can I trade in my (now ex) wife who isn't worth much and has high "mileage" for a new model?

**halonachos**

Or they could take out your old body parts and trade them in for newer ones. They could use use the old body parts for food for the homeless.

**Wrexasaur**

Frazzled wrote:US Postal service is an absolute joke.

And letting UPS and FedEX and what-not take over the whole market will somehow fix that?

Police, public schools, and fire departments are LOCAL, with local control. Public schools are a real mixed bag. Some school districts are excellent. Some absolutely suck. Most metropolitan public school systems failed the Bush standardized testing this year.

Umm... Funding? I know that private schools tend to test better, but expecting private schools to somehow fix the problems with education in this country is just silly. Most students do well in the U.S. because they are good students, not because the schools are good. You are correct though, our public schools suck, and it makes U.S. citizens more stupider.

BTW, the Health Care Reform is focused on insurance, not the hospitals themselves, so in essence it will supposedly work along the same lines as any of these other socialized services. All schools have opportunities to get money from their district as well as the state if they choose to make the appropriate changes. Apparently being connected to the state (which most programs are, at least indirectly) makes it evil... or something.

I would like to know what you think of the Agricultural subsidies in the U.S. Frazzled.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:Yea it worked great. I get to pay so some other loser driving a gas guzzler can get money to buy a new car. Yea thats great.

Taxation is redistributive by nature.

Frazzled wrote:
Its my understanding there have been major problems in actually getting money from the government. 97% of applications come back needing something else (my understanding the original rules book on filling out the app was something like over 150 pages-wo).

Honestly, this didn't really surprise me. Rebates are complicated enough when dealing with something as simple as proof of purchase.

Frazzled wrote:
I wonder if this actually sunk healthcare legisltation.

I don't think so. I think there's enough intrinsic fear of government in this country to account for the hostility.

Frazzled wrote:
US Postal service is an absolute joke.

In what sense? UPS and DHL are obviously superior means of shipping, but USPS has to offer services which extend beyond gross profitability.

Frazzled wrote:
Police, public schools, and fire departments are LOCAL, with local control. Public schools are a real mixed bag. Some school districts are excellent. Some absolutely suck. Most metropolitan public school systems failed the Bush standardized testing this year.

Local, but still government run. Though it was a poor example in light of the topic.

As for public schools: One of the main issues here is the need to offer a wide variety of academic facilities in every school within a given district, or even across multiple districts. It leads to a dilution of quality with respect to instruction (hiring less-qualified teachers), and waste via the retention of unnecessary staff.

**Wrexasaur**

I actually like my local post-woman, I would be sad to see her go. On top of this I cannot imagine a better way to effectively handle public mail. Regardless of how USPS handles larger packages badly from time to time, my experience with their snail-mail has been exemplary. I recall a few people who have lost their snail-mail but overall it is usually because they messed up in their labeling.

**Kilkrazy**

The Post Office in the UK used to be an awesome organisation. It provided universal service by which a letter posted from London to Cambridge cost the same as a letter posted from London to the Outer Hebrides. The prices were cheap. The delivery times were excellent and reliable. There were post offices on all high streets and in small villages so they were easy to get to and do your stuff, they were also used to provide a variety of other government services such as pension payouts, car licensing and a variety of banking services, which was valuable for social cohesion. It even made a profit.

All that has gone, in the name of allowing private companies to provide competition which would improve the service.

What has actually happened is that companies such as UPS, who used to provide very good specialist courier type services for business, have been allowed to cream off the most profitable parts of the old PO service while leaving ordinary consumers to pay higher prices for a worse service to subsidise the universal service which the PO is mandated to maintain but the competing companies aren't.

In effect, the man in the street is indirectly subsidising big business.

**Typeline**

Frazzled wrote:
Typeline wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Yea it worked great. I get to pay so some other loser driving a gas guzzler can get money to buy a new car. Yea thats great.

I've always been fine with that. The small drop in the bucket I give in taxes goes to getting people I hate in cars I hate to drive cars I like. So now when they hit me doing 70 I don't die.

Do you pay income taxes Typeline?

Is this a trick question? Of course I do.

**dogma**

He's talking about rebates. If you get rebates you don't pay, and Fraz is too much of an IN-DYE-VID-U-A-LIST to allow any form of redistribution. Because that's socialism, and socialism is just another word for communism, which is just another word for fascism, which is just another word for royalism, which is just another word for the old man in the village with crazy ideas.

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
Typeline wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Yea it worked great. I get to pay so some other loser driving a gas guzzler can get money to buy a new car. Yea thats great.

I've always been fine with that. The small drop in the bucket I give in taxes goes to getting people I hate in cars I hate to drive cars I like. So now when they hit me doing 70 I don't die.

Do you pay income taxes Typeline?

And what is your opinion on the military budget frazzled? Or do you only mind it when the taxes go towards vehicles that actually get driven in America.

**dogma**

halonachos wrote:Yes, yes I have. I call it "Lying with Statistics and Other American Practices.".

Interesting. I would call it "Halonachos enjoys expressing opinions on subjects he knows nothing about"

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ShumaGorath wrote:

and socialism is just another word for communism,

You should probably crack open a dictionary. You're home schooling is showing captain individual-man.

which is just another word for fascism

Now you're just trolling.

Whoa. Who said that?

**Orkeosaurus**

Wait, I'm confused. Is Shuma criticising Frazzled for Dogma's post?

**Wrexasaur**

I am not sure, but this can only end fantastically... wait, I meant badly

.

Before this thread does or doesn't go crazy I am going to insert an image to direct the discussion into a slightly less threatening subject... than cars, or something.

COOKIE MONSTER!

Wait... I ordered cookies shaped like money... man, and a car, utter fail and epic-phatically (<---not a word) cookie store. Thank god I didn't get that special fruit basket that you were trying to sell me

.

**dogma**

Orkeosaurus wrote:Wait, I'm confused. Is Shuma criticising Frazzled for Dogma's post?

OH! That was my post. Yeah, what the hell Shuma?

**Major Malfunction**

Good riddance. Not only do the taxpayers get to subsidize the bad loans made to people that shouldn't have had mortgages, but now they get to subsidize the car purchases of people that will in 80% of the cases go buy cars from foreign car companies.

And dogma, this idea of "redistribution" is nothing more than government sanctioned theft. I like the coloring of extortion as social justice... nice touch.

**dogma**

The Green Git wrote:
And dogma, this idea of "redistribution" is nothing more than government sanctioned theft. I like the coloring of extortion as social justice... nice touch.

The idea of redistribution has been a component of tax theory since before the existence of political liberalism (as in Locke, Smith, Montesquieu, etc.). You can take it as theft, but that means re-envisioning a whole lot of the theoretical underpinning of our government.

**ShumaGorath**

dogma wrote:
Orkeosaurus wrote:Wait, I'm confused. Is Shuma criticising Frazzled for Dogma's post?

OH! That was my post. Yeah, what the hell Shuma?

Don't ask me. I'm as confused as to how that happened as everyone else here. Sorry about that, strike it from the record.

And dogma, this idea of "redistribution" is nothing more than government sanctioned theft. I like the coloring of extortion as social justice... nice touch.

I love it when 14 year olds scream about the injustice of redistributed resources. How do you like those roads? All that schooling? That nice military that flies around? Social work? You like social workers? How about the police? It sure is terrible that you're tax dollars are being redistributed into the hands of the police, all they do is pull you over! All governments are social governments. It's a central tenet of the theory of governance. Take a little from each individual to improve the whole in a method the individuals are incapable of doing themselves.

As for the car companies being foreign, that doesn't particularly matter. The cars were already payed for by the dealerships, the money given to them via stimulus rebates goes directly to american businesses.