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as i am world-wide known for being firm foe of an emperor ( ), well at least I know i am pro-xenos, i play all the other armies, CSM, nids, eldar, orkz
this thread will be about me thinking seriously about chaos codex, looking for pros&cons, considering and comparing effectiveness of particular units
i came up with a 2k list, i could not fit my ideas into lower point pool

'ere we go

HQ
---
Chaos Lord - Combi-melta, Wings, PF, MoK
{155pts}

Elite
---
Chosen CSM (#6) - meltaguns, Champ
{168pts}

Chosen CSM (#6) - flamers, Champ
{143pts}

Chosen CSM (#6) - meltaguns, Champ
{168pts}

Troops
---
Chaos Space Marines (#10) - missile launcher, flamer, Rhino, IoS
{220pts}

Chaos Space Marines (#10) - missile launcher, flamer, Rhino, IoS
{220pts}

Khorne Berzerkers (#6) - Skull Champ. with PF, Rhino
{201pts}

Khorne Berzerkers (#6) - Skull Champ. with PF, Rhino
{201pts}

Fast Attack
---
Chaos Raptors (#7) - MoK, meltaguns (#2)
{190pts}

Heavy Support
---
Chaos Vindicator - Daemonic Possession, Combi-flamer
{155pts}

Obliterator Cult (#1)
{75pts}

Summoned Daemons
---
Summoned Greater Daemon
{100pts}

Total points: 1996
Total models: 61

deployment: all three squads of chosen infiltrate and shoot opponent to death, until the Biggy arrives, and i choose the squad that is closer to tanks and important units of enemy, so that he can begin the spring-cleaning

lord flies with raptors

vindi and troops in rhinos advance simultaneously, the 2 squads of CSMs go for objectives and sit there, their ML and flamers holding enemy back, their IoS giving them advantage, if they were to be engaged in cc

the single obliterator provides limited long-range anti-tank support, aiming for nasty dreadnoughts/LR crusaders and other kind of anti-infantry thing

c&c welcome!

OK I have several questions/comments....

First: Why ML's and Flamers on the CSM? Youll only ever use one or the other. Perhaps more specialisation rather than Jack of all Trades? Also MoN would probly be better than MoS. With MoN you will be far harder to shift off objectives. Hell maybe even go with PM theyre only a couple of points more then 10 CSM with MoN.

Second: Wouldn't a DP with wings be better? Hell do far more damage and will be very hard to kill if he attacks the right targets. MoN and warptime will also be super useful here.

Third: I dont really get the obsession with the Chosen here. Sure they will do well against a tank. One tank. And perhaps one squad with those flamers. But they have to get into range, and then not die to actually do much. Usually people take only 1 minimum squad with Meltas for that pesky Russ, LR or Monolith. Atm you have almost 500pts (1/4 of your WHOLE army!) popping up right next to probably 2000pts of enemies. Thats never good. Especially when its only 18 MEQ's.

Finally: I say drop the Raptors. Sure they're OK but thats 190pts that could turn your CSM into tricked out PMs! Or another Oblit 1 is just a Deep Striking fire magnet and it'll probably be 75pts down the drain. 2 Multimeltas or Plasma Cannons is a real headache though.

On a final note - If you dropped some of those Chosen you could get a LR for those zerkers! Gotta love that!

Other than this I like the list. Vindi is good and I like the use of lots of Troops (which is where I usually fall down )

i do not want my HQs to be one quarter of my army, that's why i do not take two DPs with lash or warptime.... i want a little, but still useful, HQ, not very costy, easy to hide in infantry

no, i will NOT drop the raptors... they are one of the tank hunter options in my list, and i consider them perfect!

if i wanted to take expensive plague marines, i would have already... i like the combination of 2 guns i gave the CSM troopers, i do not have to fire the two of them at once! once they sit at the objective, i use the ML for long-rang support, and if there was an enemy charging them, i first weaken him with the flamer (as i expect ork boyz/gauns/stealers and that kind of stuff) and then abuse my initiative advantage

the obsession with chosen is not irrational... not only their anti-tank power is awesome, but they stay in cover until either enemy, or GD arrives... i will always choose to go second, so i can adjust my deployment to enemy's one, and place melta chosen close to termies/tanks, whilst hiding flamer chosen next to numerous infantry squads

i do not agree with zerkers riding in a LR for several reasons:
- expensive
- am i expected to buy a LR for both squads? LOL
- i want the squads to operate independently
- LR will get shot at by big guns, whilst in case of 4 rhinos, the choice is more difficult

Don't ask for advice and then obnoxiously reject everything.

A Prince would be far superior to the lord. Lords are tier 2 HQs for chaos - for fluffy builds, not competitive builds.

If you are counting on raptors as tank killers, you are in trouble. All of those points and you *might* get a nice tank before you get killed. 190 points is two more obliterators with change to spare. Do you honestly think that small raptor squad is more dangerous than obliterators?

You bought expensive CSM, so why the phobia of tanking the best objective hoders in the game instead? 5 plague marines in a rhino with 2 plasma guns are 226 points. That is 6 more than your csm squad and they are an substantially better at sitting on an objective.
Justifying mixing special weapons is just that - justification for inefficiency. That is list building 101 for chaos - ALWAYS choose 2 of the same special weapon.

The obsession for chosen is irrational. 479 points tied up in suicide squads? You do realize that they are suicide squads, right? It doesn't matter who goes first, a good general will set up to deny infiltrating kills. With the opponent knowing what the chosen are for, you will be lucky to get the daemon in through anything but a powerfisted berserker champ. Small chosen squads die fast.

Landraiders are the cats meopw for berserkers. Expensive? Yes. Effective? Highly. Who cares if it gets shot up as long as it delivers its payload. All of the heavy weapons shooting at it means the rest of your army is NOT being shot at. Will it die? Yes. The trick is moving 12 and using cover to aliminate some shots, popping smoke, and moving 12 the next turn and charging.

Your single vindicator will get annhialated. The land raider would help somewhat, but that is where a lot of the heavy shots will go. 1 obliterator is questionable. 2 squads of 2 is ideal, 1 squad of 3 is acceptable.

Lord: why a powerfist? They have a decent Initiative and powerfist can be littered in squads. Tried and true. The only time I see fists on IC are from people new to the hobby, loving the image and coolness, only to be hugely disappointed in-game.
I'm not joking, I've seen people lop off the arm.

If you like it that much, then roll with it, a combi-melta is a natural choice to compliment the fist.

Chosen: it would help to tell us how many melta guns with it... seriously it's annoying to have to decipher it from adding up the points and stuff, easy to do on my part but I think it's just a courtesy.

So 5 per squad.
I don’t feel they are entirely worth it.
Foot flamers don’t work.
Melta guns will most likely never get to shoot if you go first, if you do get to shoot at the enemy first turn it won’t be in 2D6 range.
In addition, they are soft kill points.

Chaos space marines: we work with 2 special weapons. I don’t know about other people’s gaming groups, but I don’t think anyone in mine that uses chaos uses the hvy weapon option. Only an Iron Warriors player, but it’s a themed list.

What’s the point of IoS on a squad that prob. wants to shoot?
No champ?
You need at least one here.
For the greater daemon:
Imagine this situation: Dawn of War, chosen walke onto the board turn 1, the Greater daemon shows up turn 2, that means the furthest the chosen are, are 12” into the board taken into account a 6” run on turn 1.
Which means the GD is screwed.
Now you have a rhino squad on the board, making full steam ahead… most likely in enemy lines when the GD shows up.

Chaos troops are generally about close-range firefights and close combat, we get the Close Combat Weapon over loyalists for a reason.

Zerkers are sort of meh, 6 is not an impressive number, and a power weapon would seem better here due to:
*the counter attack nature of a small squad of zerkers
*low bodies mean earlier wound allocation rollz on champ.

Raptors: if you invest in raptors to have ICON of Khorne, why not he champion?

Vindi is ok, a bit over geared, but vehicles like these work best in pairs…as the only threatening tank it’s sort of meh.

Oblit: eh…
Greater deamon: meh.

You have a lot of soft kill points littered all over the army.

My 7 Cents.

The 2x melta, Rhino CSM squads are great. They get chainswords so they can pop say a LR, or Rhino and assault whats inside. Kill a loyalist tactical squad they are far superior to Vanilla tactical squads.

Ok, this list sucks. Trying to create the best build basically?

Your heavy sucks.

Ive been thinking about this for a while and I think it would work great.

2x3 Obliterators, 2x Lash Sorcerors.
They footslog up the field, turn one obliterators pop transports, turn two Sorceror lashs enemy squad close together, and plasma cannons fire.

Raptars are meh, vindicators are meh, chosen dont work. Beserkers are meh, 3x CSM squad, 2x meltagun, Power fist, Rhino, that will do as your troops.

@Lord-Loss:
Oblits/Lash: not everyone wants to be a competitive jerk though. Stream lining the list and making squads more useful is great, but not at the point of losing casual gamers to play against (depending on gaming group dynamics).

My 7 Cents.

as i concluded from the replies, basically everything is screwed up in the chaos codex... thank you!

as i concluded from the replies, basically everything is screwed up in the chaos codex... thank you!

You can thank GW for that, but it’s still a functional army, it may not ‘fit’ with the way you envision it, but every army plays differently.

i do not want my HQs to be one quarter of my army

That’s fine, but Daemon princes are cost effective, you spend 25% of the army on them but the returns are priceless.

Lords and Sorc are little, but not cheap… Daemon princes are cheaper. IC’s are easier to hide, but don’t offer target saturation as DP’s do… much give and take, but IC’s are not as flashy as DP’s.

, i will NOT drop the raptors

Then don’t, but give them some love so that they can do other roles besides tank hunting.

(as i expect ork boyz/gauns/stealers and that kind of stuff) and then abuse my initiative advantage

All three of the types of stuff you will be charging makes Icon of Slaanesh bonus pretty moot.
I4 space marines are faster than ork boyz and spine guants already.
Stealers are crazy initiative that’s faster than I5.
The only benefit you get is going faster than I4 (ie: marines/hormagauts).
You’ll kill hormagaunts well enough, but you have no power weapons for the marines.

You may like the ‘tactical’ squad of Chaos Space marines…. But why not just run loyalists…
The ONE bonus our Chaos Marines have over loyalists is the double special weapons.

not only their anti-tank power is awesome, but they stay in cover until either enemy, or GD arrives...

Anti-tank is nice if it can be used. They are only good if the opponent move TOWARDS you…with out killing them and without thinking.
As I described, it’s a rules issue that makes melta chosen not so great when infiltrating, not the squad itself.
And the Greater daemon is cool, but plagued with the rules as well sometimes…and the generally slow speed coupled with the love/hate 4++.

with zerkers riding in a LR

Agreed it’s expensive
But Zerkers in rhino’s are generally made for counter attack, which may be what you intend to do. But the LR is the only assault vehicle we have, the rhino’s are more defensive in use.

My 7 Cents.

thank you very much, at least one constructive reply, not like: these are bad, you suck!

i did not want to field DPs, as every time they get on the board, they get killed quickly, and i cannot really appreciate the advantage of drawing all the enemy fire... they are supposed to knock out vehicles and whole squads, and troopers are destined to die!

If you want advice on an army list but want to keep it to a particular theme or within certan limits you need to say this in your original post. If you dont people will then offer you standard triend and tested advice that will make your army much much better, but isnt useful for you. It isnt acceptable to throw advice back at somebody that was taking time to answer your post. It is your own fault that you didnt receive useful advice because you didnt preface your post with the conditions your army has to meet. If you dont want comment and criticism dont ask for it.

Now on to your list:

If you dont want to take a demon prince then take a sorcerer. Psychic powers can really make a big difference and they usually cost about the same as a lord. A sorcerer with wings and warptime is 145pts and better in combat than your lord (force weapons slaughter characters and MCs). If you want to keep your lord then give him a power sword instead so you sont waste the extra I.

Your chosen need transports. Using them to infiltrate is far too risky, but having outflanking chosen in rhinos can be deadly. At the very least it will make your opponents box up into the centre of the table do not to risk getting hit by a nasty squad of chosen. The champion upgrade isnt necessary since you arent really getting any good combat use out of them. Its better to focus on your strengths and the points could be better spent elsewhere.

You could use a few more berzerkers. With such small squad sizes they risk getting beaten in combat if you get bad rolls. More will make this a lot less likely. You will be kicking yourself when bad rolls mean that you lose to a squad of lootas that you should have wiped off the table.

Your CSM squads are trying to do too many things. If you want to use them to hold objectives then give them longer ranged weapons and icons that will make them stay where they are. If you want to use them for attacking then give them shorter ranged weapons and icons that are better in combat. At the moment they arent particularly good at attacking or at sitting on objectives. Presuming you want to use them defensively (you have berzerkers for attacking) then swap the flamers out for plasmas and give them and IoCG. This means they have more range to threaten stuff at a distance and are less likely to run away from shooting or losing combat.

I like using raptors, but you do need to have a champions with a special weapons in there to give them a little extra punch. Since you are using IoK then a powerfist would be good.

There isnt any point having a combi-flamer on a vindicator. If you lose the main gun they are basically useless anyway and a demolisher cannon is much better for killing infantry than a flamer template.

There also isnt any point taking a single obliterator. Although they are the best heavy support in the codex, a single one is too vulnerable to eating a stray lascannon and dying. Good things count in large amounts, so a single one isnt worth it. Scrap it and use the points to pay for other upgrades.

hippohroch wrote:thank you very much, at least one constructive reply, not like: these are bad, you suck!

i did not want to field DPs, as every time they get on the board, they get killed quickly, and i cannot really appreciate the advantage of drawing all the enemy fire... they are supposed to knock out vehicles and whole squads, and troopers are destined to die!

Did you not like our advice because we were honest? I was constructive, Inigo was constructive, So was Sanctjud, Lord-Loss and Regwon. In fact the only who wasn't constructive was you. Please don't get angry at us because we answered your OP honestly and with advice that you may have disagreed with. If you want advice then I gave it to you and you just came back and threw it in my face. That's what I think about your list and I stand by it. Whether you listen or not is up to you.

Please don't get angry at us because we answered your OP honestly and with advice that you may have disagreed with.

to be honest, i wanted to reply in a more bitter way...
you see, it does not help much if you say: these are bad, these are also bad, these die quickly, your idea of taking small HQ is bad, vindi is bad, everything's bad! i explained that i did not want to field a DP, as i have bad experience with it, i explained the mission for regular CSMs, the objectives of raptors+lord, i said i want the zerkers to operate separately (i know what i am talking about... if i took a full rhino of zerkers, that's over 300pts... do you think they survive?) and i do not want to buy 2 LRs, as they (loaded with zerkers) would take half of the points... i wanted a balanced roster, some defence, some attack, lot of anti-tak in today's mech metagame

you see, i spend about 2 hours making up this list, and the first 3 responses tore my idea completely apart... it's like your wife finally gave birth to your first son after 8 years of trying, and then doctor comes, says it's ugly and throws it out of the window


Automatically Appended Next Post:
okay, based on the tips listed above, i decide to give myself one more chance...

HQ
---
Chaos Sorcerer - Warptime, Wings, MoS, meltabombs
{155pts}

Elite
---
Chosen CSM (#10) - meltaguns (#5), meltabombs (#5), IoCG, Rhino
{300pts}

Troops
---
Chaos Space Marines (#10) - Champ. with PF, IoN, plasma gun, autocannon, Rhino
{300pts}

Chaos Space Marines (#10) - Champ. with PF, IoN, plasma gun, autocannon, Rhino
{300pts}

Khorne Berzerkers (#10) - Skull Champ. with PW
{250pts}

Fast Attack
---
Raptors (#9) - Champ. with PF, MoK
{250pts}

Heavy Support
---
Chaos Land Raider - Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade
{230pts}

Obliterator Cult (#2)
{150pts}

Obliterator Cult (#1)
{75pts}

Total points: 2.000
Total models: 54

how about this one? i promise not to get angry anymore

This list is much much better.

10 chosen probably isnt essential. You can get away with running them in squads of 7 or 8 and save yourself some points.

I think that IoCG would be better on your CSM than IoN. T5 is good but if you lose a few and they run away it could lose you the game. IoN is also eye wateringly expensive.

Your skull champ would be better off with a powerfist. In squads powerfists are better than power weapons because they cant be targeted seperately, and you get a lot of fists attacks on the charge.

The raptors need some meltas because you are low on anti-tank but are otherwise fine.

Another oblit would be nice if you can find the points for it.

sure, i forgot to give meltaguns to raptors, as i had in previous roster

also, i had the skull champ. with PF at first, but then i read several replies above that khorne champ is better off with PW... to be honest, i never tried either, and my squad of zerkers seems short-on-weapons against armour... i will consider the PF!

if i was able to find points somewhere, i would have fielded double vindicators but if i manage to throw away some chosen, i may be able to field the 4th oblie

thanks for response! anxiously waiting for more!

OK!

This is MUCH better and I actually quite like it. I still have 2 quick comments though.

One - If It was me I'd lose the Dirge Caster and Dozer Blade on the LR. Kinda superflous and if you lose those couple of chosen and a couple of raptors too you can pay for another oblit!

And Two - Nothing my other point was wrong.

So in summary

I like the IoN on the CSM for tuffness! One Chosen squad is way better as is One LR zerker squad. Yay for more oblits and no Greater Daemon! Love the new list!

No need to get angry over this list!

Well I've never played as chaos. So feel free to disreguard everything i say as a tyranid player i know however that monsterous creatures are greta and everyone hates them. They are also scary a daemon price with wings can get into cc 2nd turn if not 3rd turn is he survives that long the point is though if you can get a land raider and daemon price into the same list. you'll find people put their heavy weapons onto the land raider and there normal weapons/some sepcial weapons onto the price. As well a chaos lord tears apart squads in cc and leave him open to shootting in their next turn. Also Lord can be instant deathed heard it happen before first las-cannon shot of the game instant deaths him. Right Madgod?
The daemon price has less attacks and if he get into close combat with say 5 marines he will kill may 2,3 maybe even 4 rarly 5 maybe if they pass their leadership. Your in combat still and can't be shot at now in their assault phase you can finish them off that leaves you free in your next turn to move 12 inches and assault 6 inches if you have wings. You see what I mean? you may also say why take a daemon price if he's gonna get shot at well think about it what i liked from your first list was the zerkers in rhino's i really beg you to change that back. If they fire everything at the land raider and daemon price then for 1 or 2 turns your zerkers are 12/24 inches closer to them. and not footslogging it. Also I see your chaos marines if your not planning on getting them into close combat maybe keep in mind a squad of plague marines great for staying on an objective even greater if a rhino can park infront of them in the last turn.

Sorry about my massive wall of text with poor gramma.

np

well, i REALLY do not like daemon princes... i know he's immune to instant death, but that's about it (+ he rolls 1 dice more against vehicles)

you cannot hide him, that is nasty... he does not do that much in cc (as for the daemon, he's pretty weak)
i like common HQs, nothing extraordinary

if i wanted something bigger, i would have fielded lord on mount... but believe, me, despite serious explanation, i do not want DPs and therefore i do not play them

about plague marines... you see, the FNP rule is awesome, and bonus T is also great, but... they have I 3! i feel i need to concentrate on I more, therefore i plan to field all-slaaneshi army... i prefer I to T or FNP, as in the case of good rolls, the opponent won't get the chance to fight back!

Daemon Princes add much more to the list that just immunity to instant death though.

But I won't get into it as we prob. don't need their awesom sauce to seem into every corner of 40K...

If you don't like Dp's don't run them. /shrug. They are the most efficient choice IMO, but if you don't want it, don't force yourself as all we can do is suggest.

Hiding a DP: One of the uses of a DP is to NOT hide them.
Rhino's offer wonderful cover saves.
Land Raiders WILL hide a daemon prince.

Why would a Lord on a mount be 'bigger'?
_____________

On plague marines... I 3?
Seriously... you are that worried about initiative. In a chaos army... it's prob. the second most ignored statline we could have, next to leadership in regards to morale tests...

Blight Grenades, Special Weapons under 10 man, More Efficient Choice of Power fist, T5, FNP.

vs.

I5. Then sonic weapons at a premium.

The only thing I5 is maximized against is I4.
Many dangerous CC units are I6, while other hordes stuff is I3.
So I4/5 is inherently faster or slower than many things.

Certainly getting the leg up on other MEQs is nice, but one is paying so much for a slight benefit.
That's 50 points for a 10 man squad to get I5, fearless, access to sonic weapons and no more specials.

/shrug, pm's generally are the superior choice, but again, go with what you want to do.

_______________

The list, I agree is better.

Sorc is ok.
Chosen: agreed on just 7-8, though melta bombs are too much.

CSM: /shrug, IoN is mind numbingly expensive… hell, why not just get plague marines….if you have a rhino squad, the AC is prob. not gonna be used.
Again, don’t be a Loyalist wanna-be, be unique, be Chaos, go with 2 special weapons…IMO.
With the 2 rhino squads they should ALWAYS be escorting the LR around, so you’ll rarely get a chance to shoot the AC. When you do disembark and double tap, afterwards you’ll more likely move forward to charge or shoot some more double tapping.

Zerkers: Zerkers work well with power weapons or powerfist.
I find that power weapons are good when counter charging with zerkers.
Zerkers that are doing front line duty, I feel a power fist is more important, as you can slam into ANYTHING in the 40K universe and hurt it…which is important if you are throwing zerkers headlong into combat with a LR.

Raptors: yes, the special weapons are important.
LR: same as last time.

Oblits: eh…I’d prefer a full squad of 3, if at least to lower kill points.

My 7 Cents.

Your socerer needs Lash. Its realy helpfull for lashing stuff towards you so you can charge it.


Also good at moving heavy weapon guys (Devs etc) They will be unable to fire there weapon next turn.

Ehh, I won't suggest Lash to anybody, only WAAC players.
Even then it would prob. depend on the gaming group.

WRONG.
Hvy Weapons may still fire in the next turn.
It's only if they don't move on THEIR movement phase that affects THEIR shooting phase.

The only time they can't shoot due to them being:
-Pinned
-behind Line of Sight blocking stuff.

Jeez, such a disgustingly powerful tool and people still misunderstanding it and using it in ways that are not supposed to work.

Just stick to setting up charges, taking people off objectives, and pie plate formations..... why be creative and end up with something that isn't right.../shrug.

My 7 Cents.

Deep breaths Sanctjud Deeep Breaths....he made a mistake don't bite his head off.

But I do agree on the PM's. They are waaay better than I5. They get the same attacks and at T5 against MEQ's they're still damned hard to kill from shooting too. I5 is only for CC and is often useless anyway as said above. Plus FNP!? Thats like 72 IG Lasgun shots to kill a PM! Love it! Against the same NM it only takes 18 shots. Take the PM. A Heavy Bolter/Autocannon doesnt care about I5.