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BGB Page 75 wrote:Units with this ability that are locked in combat may choose to leave close combat at the end of the Assault phase.

I've been told that "the Assault" phase is always "your Assault"

Then later it says

BGB Page 75 wrote:If there are units with this rule on both sides, roll-off to determine who goes first and then alternate disengaging them.

Does this mean that this special rule only takes affect.

1. At the end of your Assault phase
2. At the end of any Assault phase where both sides have units with Hit & Run Universal Rules

Thanks.

just any assault phase where one squad has hit and run

So you are saying that Hit & Run allows a unit to disengage at the end of your opponents Assault phase? Even if my units are the only units with the Hit & Run Universal Rule?

The way it's written, it looks like that, yes.

You can disengage the models at the end of your opponents assault phase. Why else would it say "If there are units with this rule on both sides, roll-off to determine who goes first and then alternate disengaging them." If you could only do it in your own assault phase, then there'd be no point in the roll off because the opponent would have to wait to disengage.

Yes, you can use it in your opponents assault phase, presumably so you can recharge them in your turn.

The Hit & Run rule says no sweeping advance rolls are made. Does this mean that units with fail to Hit & Run are immune to: Morale, Sweeping Advance, and No Retreat?

Or do they take a morale check after they fail to run away? If they fail it, does the Hit & Run's no SA requirement mean that they are guaranteed to fall back safely?

What it means is that if they successfully break off, they cannot be Sweeping Advanced. The H&R test is done after everything else, all the Morale tests etc as it is done at the end of the assault phase, after all fights have been completed.

There are several other rules that state do this in "the Assault" phase, and they do not benefit from this thought. ex. Eldar Jetbikes, Jump Infantry with Jet Packs, etc...

Is it because your unit is involved in their assault phase that they benefit from this?

sbeasley wrote:There are several other rules that state do this in "the Assault" phase, and they do not benefit from this thought. ex. Eldar Jetbikes, Jump Infantry with Jet Packs, etc...

Is it because your unit is involved in their assault phase that they benefit from this?

Because fighting in an Assault is one of the few times Models you control may act in the opponents phase.

BGB Page 9, Turn Sequence Exceptions wrote:There are times when a player is allowed to perform actions during their opponent’s turn (fighting in an assault being the most common example). It may also be convenient to interrupt a player’s turn because of some event occurring, like a booby trap being triggered. Whatever the reason, after the interruption, the turn sequence always continues as normal.

I see your point on the assault coming into play, are there any other examples that this might apply?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, you can use it in your opponents assault phase, presumably so you can recharge them in your turn.

I agree that this is it's intended purpose, but my new question is this. Where does the rules give you permission to use Hit & Run in your opponents Assault phase, when your unit is the only one with Hit and Run?

sbeasley wrote:I agree that this is it's intended purpose, but my new question is this. Where does the rules give you permission to use Hit & Run in your opponents Assault phase, when your unit is the only one with Hit and Run?

I can't tell you why, but I have a feeling the next logical argument you intend to make after this is that since the wording is identical in Hit & Run referring to "the Assault phase" and since Eldar jet bikes have the ability to move 6 inches in "the Assault phase", then why by the same logic used to determine Hit & Run can be used in the opponents assault phase can you not Eldar jet bikes 6 inches in your opponents assault phase.

I would have to say by RaW, either you can move 6 inches in your opponents assault phase with Eldar jet bikes AND Hit & Run in your opponents assault phase or you can do NEITHER in your opponents assault phase. Again by RaW. I doubt you find too many people who play it that way though.

I would be interested to hear arguments that would prove this otherwise.

That is very clever. About the only defense I could muster is some sort of vague blather about how you cannot "activate" your jetbikes to move them since your opponent is controlling which units are being moved and worked with in his Assault Phase, but you can nominate them in your own Assault Phase.

Hit & Run ignores this since you have to activate your unit to fight with it in your opponent's assault phase.

But, yeah, RAI I'm pretty sure it's wrong, but RAW I don't have a good defense at all.

@mattnaik: Permissive rules + Break No Rule prevents Eldar jetbikes from assaulting on the enemy turn. There's no rule (as far as I know) against declaring normal assault moves in your opponent's turn, but it's clearly illegal.

The wording of Hit & Run makes it clear that it is permitted (contrary to normal limitations) to use this power in your opponent's assault phase (by describing what happens should both players choose to use the power on the same turn). There's a clear reason to claim that the Hit & Run USR's reference to "the assault phase" is any assault phase. There's no clear reason to make similar claims elsewhere, such as the case of Eldar Jetbikes.

If the rules described how Eldar players playing against other Eldar players should allocate their bonus movement within a single phase (such that they both moved), then it would be a different story.

Clearly if you tried to move in your opponents assault turn by using your assault move you would certainly be TFG. Unless of course it was to break away form combat with the Hit n Run rule after combat took place.

ajfirecracker wrote:@mattnaik: Permissive rules + Break No Rule prevents Eldar jetbikes from assaulting on the enemy turn. There's no rule (as far as I know) against declaring normal assault moves in your opponent's turn, but it's clearly illegal.

There's also no rule that says you CAN launch an assault move in your opponents turn.

However, the rule says the Eldar jet bikes CAN move in "the assault phase". A rule saying you CAN do something, well, its allowing you to do it.

The discrepancy lies in the fact that one rule refers to "the assault phase" as "any assault phase" and is clearly backed up by the fact that it refers to rules as to what happens when both people have the ability (as you just mentioned). But then previously in the book is says the CAN do something in "the assault phase".

The lack of rules discussing what happens when both players have the ability does NOT prove anything. Which if you look is kinda the exact same argument you made in your first sentence

Actually there is a rule that you cannot launch an attack in your opponents turn (pg9):

This means that both forces can fight in an Assault phase, but only the player whose turn it is can move into an assault.

You are right it is a permissive rule set, and lookie it say Eldar Jetbikes can move 6" in the assault phase. Boy if that isn't permission I don't know what is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldar jetbikes can move 6" even if they are not launching an assault. So having the ability to assault isn't a requirement.

BGB Page 53 wrote:All Eldar jetbikes (including Dark Eldar ones) are allowed to move 6" in the Assault phase, even if they don’t assault.

sbeasley wrote:You are right it is a permissive rule set, and lookie it say Eldar Jetbikes can move 6" in the assault phase. Boy if that isn't permission I don't know what is.

What part of "You may not act in your opponents turn" do you not understand? It is not a rule, it is a Fundamental Law of the a Turn by Turn game. If you ignore that, then I can move and shoot in your turn too!

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:You are right it is a permissive rule set, and lookie it say Eldar Jetbikes can move 6" in the assault phase. Boy if that isn't permission I don't know what is.

What part of "You may not act in your opponents turn" do you not understand? It is not a rule, it is a Fundamental Law of the a Turn by Turn game. If you ignore that, then I can move and shoot in your turn too!

If a rule specifically says you can then YES you can!

And thus the portion in the rules called Turn Sequence Exceptions which states that there are times when you may interrupt someones turn, in certain situations.

Which is why I should point out if "the Assault" always refers to "the current player turns Assault" then there are only two valid options for H&R USR.

1. You may leave at the end of your assault
2. You may leave at the end of your oppenents assault phase if and only if both sides have a unit involved in the assault and have the H&R USR.

Otherwise you get this break down in the rules, where it opens up a whole new can of worms where jet packs and eldar jetbikes get to move and thus almost always be outside of assault range.

I'm going to assault you.

No your not I'm moving 6" away. You fail.

Obviously that wasn't intended, and isn't played that way.

This is yet another example of how the GW game designers suck at being authors and really they need to hire lawyers to go over there rules. Then we might actually get a solid rules edition.

Where does it say "You may move 6" in your opponents assault phase?"

It doesn't, therefore you cannot.

Gwar! wrote:Where does it say "You may move 6" in your opponents assault phase?"

It doesn't, therefore you cannot.

where does it say you can Hit and Run in your opponents Assault phase?

It doesn't therefor you cannot.

Right?

BGB Page 53 wrote:All Eldar jetbikes (including Dark Eldar ones) are allowed to move 6" in the Assault phase, even if they don’t assault.

BGB Page 75 wrote:Units with this ability that are locked in combat may choose to leave close combat at the end of the Assault phase.

Right there. This is why it has an issue with H&R USR, because it says the same thing, and yet people say you can disengage in your opponents Assault phase. By the same logic, you should be able to move Eldar Jetbikes 6" in the Assault phase.

It doesn't say that you may Hit & Run in your opponents Assault Phase either, but it does describe what happens if you choose to do so.

Here, to understand the rule, we're required to make the small leap of faith that something the game tells us how to do is something we're allowed to do. If the movement phase described how to move, but not whether or not you were allowed to, it would still be RaW that you could move, by induction.

ajfirecracker wrote:It doesn't say that you may Hit & Run in your opponents Assault Phase either, but it does describe what happens if you choose to do so.

Here, to understand the rule, we're required to make the small leap of faith that something the game tells us how to do is something we're allowed to do. If the movement phase described how to move, but not whether or not you were allowed to, it would still be RaW that you could move, by induction.

Well, if the rule says "This is what to do in your opponents Assault phase", I would hope one can put 2 and 2 together and realise you can use it in the opponents assault phase eh?

Yes it does. Look at the end of the H&R USR. If both sides have the USR they roll off, thus it doesn't matter who has it if the opponent wants to leave in your turn they are allowed too.

sbeasley wrote:

BGB Page 53 wrote:All Eldar jetbikes (including Dark Eldar ones) are allowed to move 6" in the Assault phase, even if they don’t assault.

BGB Page 75 wrote:Units with this ability that are locked in combat may choose to leave close combat at the end of the Assault phase.

Right there. This is why it has an issue with H&R USR, because it says the same thing, and yet people say you can disengage in your opponents Assault phase. By the same logic, you should be able to move Eldar Jetbikes 6" in the Assault phase.

Exactly, which by RAW, its BOTH or NEITHER

sbeasley wrote:Yes it does. Look at the end of the H&R USR. If both sides have the USR they roll off, thus it doesn't matter who has it if the opponent wants to leave in your turn they are allowed too.

So you agree then that you cannot do anything in an Opponents turn unless explicitly permitted too, such as Fighting an Assault, Mystics or H&R?

Actually there is a flaw in your logic. Your opponent would move into assault before you moved your bikes in the assault phase. Since generally units cannot disengage from assault you are in assault. Even with the Hit and Run special rule you can leave at the end of combat. Sure you can move all over the place in the assault phase but you cannot assault unless it is your assault phase and you cannot move away form an assault as your opponent is trying to assault you.

RAW doesn't always work. RAI doesn't always work.

Gwar! wrote:

sbeasley wrote:Yes it does. Look at the end of the H&R USR. If both sides have the USR they roll off, thus it doesn't matter who has it if the opponent wants to leave in your turn they are allowed too.

So you agree then that you cannot do anything in an Opponents turn unless explicitly permitted too, such as Fighting an Assault, Mystics or H&R?

I agree with Assault, not sure what you mean by Mystics, and H&R only if both sides involved in the assault have H&R, according to RAW

But if you allow H&R to leave during the Assault phase without both sides having H&R then you are also saying that Jet Packs and Eldar Jetbikes get to move in the Assault phase. Which is definitely not intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rogueeyes wrote:Actually there is a flaw in your logic. Your opponent would move into assault before you moved your bikes in the assault phase. Since generally units cannot disengage from assault you are in assault. Even with the Hit and Run special rule you can leave at the end of combat. Sure you can move all over the place in the assault phase but you cannot assault unless it is your assault phase and you cannot move away form an assault as your opponent is trying to assault you.

RAW doesn't always work. RAI doesn't always work.

Who decides who goes first. Oh I see I'm in assault range now I move. Eldar Jetbikes make no distinction on when they move like H&R USR does.