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so my friends and i just started playing warhammer 40k, and one of our friends, as another puts it, is a complete idiot. he claims that the rule where you get a +1 on the vehicle damage chart when your using it against an open-tiopped vehicle does not count if the troops inside the vehicle are equipped with power armor. can someone verify this? Thanks

That was in earlier editions of the game, where certain vehicles would count as open-topped if troops firing from the firing ports didn't have 3+ or better saves.

KIANEM wrote:so my friends and i just started playing warhammer 40k, and one of our friends, as another puts it, is a complete idiot. he claims that the rule where you get a +1 on the vehicle damage chart when your using it against an open-tiopped vehicle does not count if the troops inside the vehicle are equipped with power armor. can someone verify this? Thanks

He's wrong...sometimes. Some of the older armies still have this rule. Most don't. Check each codex, and follow the rules therein.

I can confirm, you friend is a complete idiot. What he is referring to was from the old edition. What he is confused on is a rhino used to be open topped, but the power armor negated that. In the current edition, the armor of the riders is of no consequence. I hope it helps.

It actually helps alot, since he's been very persistant on the matter. Thank you all :3

Your best course of action is to simply state. Show me in either your codex, or in the 5E Rule book where it says you don't have the +1 on the damage roll, until he can provide such evidence he must play by the +1 on the damage roll. Even an idiot can understand this logic.

rednekgunner wrote:I can confirm, you friend is a complete idiot.

That's a bit harsh, really. He wouldn't be the first to be confused by edition changes. Most people aren't expected to have an encyclodedic knowledge of the current rules, so getting a rule wrong is hardly call for branding someone an idiot.

For the OP, when in doubt over the existence of rules like this, a good first approach (particularly if you're in the middle of a game and want it resolved quickly) is simply to ask the insistent opponent to show you the rule in question. If they can't do so, it doesn't apply.

It also USED to apply to Land Speeders, a particular bugbear of Eldar players who had open-topped War Walkers and Vypers at the time.

I'd like to ask what Open-Topped Transport he's using in this way though...I'm drawing a blank at Open-Topped MEQ Transports, excepting the Storm, which can only carry Scouts, who have a 4+ save...

He plays chaos, and has a squad of khorne berserkers which has a rhino as a dedicated transport. he says that since they have power armor the +1 rule doesn't cound (btw i play necrons >_&gt

Well, that explains the confusion.


The Chaos Codex specifically says in the Rhino Fire points entry that it doesn't count as open Topped because the passengers are wearing power armour.


It's an artefact of last edition's Fire Point rules, but could quite conveivably lead people to believe that firing from a transport still normally counts it as open-topped.

For the record, it doesn't. So the rhino doesn't count as open topped, not because the passengers are in power armour, but simply because it's not an open topped vehicle.

I believe the Errata clears that up on the GW site.

Ah.. Well, that explains alot then. Thank you all!

KIANEM wrote:He plays chaos, and has a squad of khorne berserkers which has a rhino as a dedicated transport. he says that since they have power armor the +1 rule doesn't count

He's both right and wrong then. Ancient 3rd edition codexes such as DH still claim transports count as open-topped if someone with a lesser save than 3+ uses the fire point. Present-day vehicles are never open-topped unless they have it listed under TYPE.

Someone messed up the copy-paste for CSM rhinos and it's in the Errata part of the CSM FAQ.

Spetulhu wrote:Someone messed up the copy-paste for CSM rhinos and it's in the Errata part of the CSM FAQ.

That current CSM codex was released during the end of 4th edition. The Errata is to make it compatible with the current edition, not a sign that it was a mistake.

Given that the current SM Dex wasn't written then, that could have been a given. lol

insaniak wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Someone messed up the copy-paste for CSM rhinos and it's in the Errata part of the CSM FAQ.

That current CSM codex was released during the end of 4th edition. The Errata is to make it compatible with the current edition, not a sign that it was a mistake.

Even the second print WH codex dropped the "open-topped because of fire points and saves" concept. I'm sure the CSM codex is newer. Besides, do the CSM even have models with a worse save than 3+ that could ride in a Rhino? A mistake of some sort whatever the cause.

Elessar wrote:It also USED to apply to Land Speeders...

No it didn't. They simply used the fact that the pilots were in power armour as an excuse why an obviously open-topped vehicle did not have the 'Open-topped' rule. There was no rule saying that a Land Speeder was open-topped if any of the models in the vehicle didn't have a 3+ save or better, mainly because there were no Land Speeders that would have had met the criteria to make it open-topped.

The rule said that Speeders weren't Open Topped, because they (the crew) had Power Armour. By logical extrapolation, if they had NOT, the vehicle would, indeed, have classified as an Open-Topped vehicle. IIRC, this was pretty clearly worded.

Except it just an opinion on your part, it's not a rule. If it were a rule, it would be in the rulebook. Why make it a rule when there's no Speeders with models not in power armour? It was simply an excuse as to why it was not open-topped, nothing more. It does not imply that it would be open-topped if the models were not in power armour.

Perhaps you do not INFER that it would be that way. It certainly IS implied.

The VDR rules granted easy access to Open-Topped Speeders.

And yet again, just because it'as your opinion it's 'inferred' does not make it so. If it's not in print, then it's not a rule. So tell us, where is it in print? And perhaps you can tell us why they gave Land Speeders a useless rule since 1) All of the models in Land Speeders are in power armour and 2) The rules you keep insisting that they have were only for passengers and not the crew. How many passengers can a Land Speeder carry? The answer is NONE. VDR has nothing to do with this. Land Speeders do not have the rule that they count as open-topped if any of the passengers didn't have a 3+ save or better.

Spetulhu wrote:Besides, do the CSM even have models with a worse save than 3+ that could ride in a Rhino?

No. Which is why the rhino entry says that it doesnt count as open-topped...

Ghaz wrote:

Elessar wrote:It also USED to apply to Land Speeders...

No it didn't. They simply used the fact that the pilots were in power armour as an excuse why an obviously open-topped vehicle did not have the 'Open-topped' rule. There was no rule saying that a Land Speeder was open-topped if any of the models in the vehicle didn't have a 3+ save or better, mainly because there were no Land Speeders that would have had met the criteria to make it open-topped.

I have the 3rd Edition codex in front of me right now, and it say that the Landspeeder is open topped but the power amour of the crew negates the open top rule......

either way it is an old rule that was deemed unneeded and thus is no longer in the codex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz wrote:And yet again, just because it'as your opinion it's 'inferred' does not make it so. If it's not in print, then it's not a rule. So tell us, where is it in print? And perhaps you can tell us why they gave Land Speeders a useless rule since 1) All of the models in Land Speeders are in power armour and 2) The rules you keep insisting that they have were only for passengers and not the crew. How many passengers can a Land Speeder carry? The answer is NONE. VDR has nothing to do with this. Land Speeders do not have the rule that they count as open-topped if any of the passengers didn't have a 3+ save or better.

The rule exsisted because of the Eldar, we had open toped vehicles that looked just like landspeeders and they needed a way to explain why an open cock-pit vehicle isnt open topped.....

insaniak wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Besides, do the CSM even have models with a worse save than 3+ that could ride in a Rhino?

No. Which is why the rhino entry says that it doesnt count as open-topped...

Exactly, because it used to be that worse than 3+ resulted in being Open topped (Like in the DH and WH codexes where this rule still applies)

The original question has been answered.