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Comparing the durability of the following units, which do you think is better, and why

Attack Bike
Toughness : 4(5)
Wounds : 2
Armor : 3+

Speeder
AV : 10

Assuming equal payload of weapons, and equal movement, which do you perfer to have for purposes of durability?
If you got AV11 in a speeder would that sway you one way or the other?

They are pretty equal. Because both can be shot up by basic bolters.

Even worse, they both die to AT fire, which is what is usually directed at my ABs...just so my opponent can instagib them.

I find my speeders living longer, just because of their 24" move and the ability to fly over terrain...this allows them to usually make better use of cover....but that has nothing to do with the T vs. AV debate.

in general a fex or wraithlord id better than a dred but i would go with the speeder in this scenario because you get a deep-striking multimelta

I guess the real problem here is you've asked two very good questions at the same time.

AV vs Toughness -- Oh boy. Cry Havok, and let slip the dogs of war, why don't ya?

Speeders VS Attack Bikes in the Space Marine arsenal -- In terms of movement, survivability, and loadout possibility, what's the better investment? Another doozie... yer battin 2 fer 2 today!

The second includes some discussion of the first, but it's so very situational.

I prefer a mix of AV and Toughness/Wounds. Sometimes I want to have my Marines give my Rhino a cover save, sometimes the Rhino is good to block LOS to the squad. Really depends on if it's small arms fire or anti-vehicular fire I'm worried about and from what direction. I think it's clear that a group of wounds is harder (usually) to place successfully to remove a squad than a single lucky penetrating shot or maybe two to remove a vehicle. In relation to the AB, however, a lot of that discussion is moot. The AB is still a single model and can be removed in a single shot.

The Land Speeder, also a single model, can shrug off the mighty lasrifle (lol) and grots attacking with clubs. The AB can be tied in CC, though, and has to stay on the ground. The LS can be outfitted with dozens of weapon combos (2 or 3 of which are very optimized, MM/HF, Typhoon, and MM).

Both can be taken in Squadrons of three, giving you six wounds across three models, or the ability to ignore stunned/shaken but be forced to sacrifice on an Immobilized (I think.. need to refresh on squad rules). The Land Speeder is a skimmer, and the only skimmer in the Space Marine arsenal, so it's able to deep strike and hop terrain just like Assault Marines. Attack Bikes only have two weapon options (albiet they got the good ones), and can make easier use of cover. They can also move up to 24", and are more resilient to all enemy fire Str 4 to Str 7. Str 8 and up instakills them, and makes them one-shot-per-model kills on a wounding roll of 2+. When firing at the skimmers, even if you penetrate on a 2+, there's a 1/3 chance you'll only stun or shake it.

Just a few of my thoughts on the matters; I prefer Land Speeder Typhoons as my Fast Attack Gunboats. However, I've seen great argument for Attack Bikes in other army types.

One very important factor when discussing AV vs. T is the fact that a unit with armor value can prevent tanks from moving through an area, whereas non-AV units can simply be tank-shocked.

AV10 wins for me.

S3 won't kill it. S4 will only glance it, probably not killing it in unless shot in large numbers (which would kill said Bike just as well). Both have "saves", as the Bike gets an armor save against a lot of weapons, and the Speeder gets a 50% "save" against getting imobilized/destroyed, not counting any cover/boosting saves.

willydstyle wrote:One very important factor when discussing AV vs. T is the fact that a unit with armor value can prevent tanks from moving through an area, whereas non-AV units can simply be tank-shocked.

QFT. Tankshocking is a big thing for some players, as they use it to control enemy infantry's movements.

Furthermore, I play guard, and I at least have the chance of killing an attack bike with a fusillade of lasgun rounds. A landspeeder, however, completely negates my lasguns. To kill the speeder, I have to resort to special weapons, such as the plasmagun, meltagun, or grenade launcher.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Furthermore, I play guard, and I at least have the chance of killing an attack bike with a fusillade of lasgun rounds..

So even though scatterlasers and autocannons are more effective at killing AV10 than a attack bike, you still dislike the AV10 more.

Thanks all for the input!

I prefer Attack bikes.

But for completely different reasons though.
Entering combat, cheaper, smaller model, 3+ cover when going fast, etc.

Av10 and Attack bike durability are different things, one may prefer one over the other, but it's crazy subjective, I'm not sure how helpful it is, other than the discussion in a sort of all-comers attitude.

My 7 Cents.