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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/56789-afl-cio-dems-push-new-wall-street-tax
So much for not taxing the middle class. Anyone who has a 401K gets a little zap.

AFL-CIO, Dems push new Wall Street tax
By Alexander Bolton - 08/30/09 10:17 AM ET
The nation’s largest labor union and some allied Democrats are pushing a new tax that would hit big investment firms such as Goldman Sachs reaping billions of dollars in profits while the rest of the economy sputters.

The AFL-CIO, one of the Democratic Party’s most powerful allies, would like to assess a small tax — about a tenth of a percent — on every stock transaction.

Small and medium-sized investors would hardly notice such a tax, but major trading firms, such as Goldman, which reported $3.44 billion in profits during the second quarter of 2009, may see this as a significant threat to their profits.


“It would have two benefits, raise a lot of revenue and discourage speculative financial activity,” said Thea Lee, policy director at the AFL-CIO.

“The big disadvantage of most taxes is that they discourage some really productive activity,” she said. “This would discourage numerous financial transactions. People flip their assets several times in an hour or a day. They make money but does it really add to the productive base of the United States?”

Lee said that taxing every stock transaction a tenth of a percent could raise between $50 billion and $100 billion per year, which could be used to pay for infrastructure projects and other spending priorities. She said the tax could be applied nationwide or internationally.

The proposal would hit especially hard those hedge funds and large banks earning hefty profits despite the shaky economy from a practice known as high-frequency trading. High-frequency traders use powerful computers to conduct hundreds of thousands of orders in mere seconds, taking advantage of slower traders.

Only the biggest investment firms can afford to develop the technology, which delivers handsome profits at little risk. The growing popularity of the practice has contributed to the soaring volume of trades on Wall Street in recent years and, some critics argue, market volatility and rampant speculation.

High-frequency trading is estimated to earn about $20 billion in profits for the nation’s biggest investment firms, who guard the their practices zealously. Goldman Sachs, for example, has accused a former computer programmer of stealing the valuable code, launching a high-profile legal battle.

The AFL-CIO and some allied Democrats would like to cut down on the overall level of trading, or at least give the U.S. government a piece of the action, which would likely tamp down trading.

Democrats and labor officials would also like to take a bite out of Goldman’s profits. Liberals are angry the company, which immersed itself in the frenzy of speculation leading to last year’s financial collapse, is now making huge profits after accepting (and repaying) $10 billion in government aid. Goldman employees are on track to earn an average of more than $700,000 this year.

There is also a growing realization among Obama administration officials and lawmakers that tax increases may be necessary to curb the ballooning federal deficit.

The idea of taxing financial transactions has gained some support on Capitol Hill and among senior government officials in London, a major foreign financial center.

In Congress, Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.), chairman of the Highways and Transit Transportation Subcommittee, has seized on the idea as a way to help pay for a new massive surface transportation reauthorization bill, estimated to cost $450 billion over six years.

Instead of taxing all stock transactions, as the AFL-CIO has contemplated, DeFazio wants to focus on oil-based derivatives.

At the end of July, shortly before the House broke for the August recess, DeFazio introduced legislation that would impose a 0.2 percent transaction tax on crude oil futures contracts. The legislation would tax the options for oil futures (in other words, the premium paid to have the option to buy a futures contract) at 0.5 percent.

“The tax is simple; it imposes a small burden that penalizes short-term traders for speculating on the price of oil,” DeFazio said in a statement. “This legislation exempts legitimate hedgers from the transaction tax. Since the tax is on speculation only, it deters speculation and undermines much of the crude oil price bubble.”

DeFazio estimates his proposal, which has been referred to the House Ways and Means Committee, would raise $190 billion over six years. It has 29 cosponsors.

An aide to a liberal Senate Democrat said a transaction tax seems like a good idea but did not know who might champion the cause in the upper chamber. An aide on the Senate Finance Committee was not aware of discussion of the proposal.

Taxing financial transactions has gained some momentum in Europe. Lord Adair Turner, chairman of the Financial Services Authority, Britain’s top banking regulator, voiced support for taxing financial transactions in a recent magazine interview. The French government has endorsed the idea as a way to fund development in poor countries.

The proposal to tax financial transactions is also known as a “Tobin tax,” after the late American economist and Nobel laureate James Tobin. Tobin proposed a transactions tax in the early 1970s to discourage currency speculation after the collapse of the Bretton Woods fixed-exchange-rate system

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Small and medium-sized investors would hardly notice such a tax, but major trading firms, such as Goldman, which reported $3.44 billion in profits during the second quarter of 2009, may see this as a significant threat to their profits.


which would surely be what most of the "middle class" would fall into surely ?

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Its a tax on middle class retirement plans.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
40kenthus






Chicago, IL

“It would have two benefits, raise a lot of revenue and discourage speculative financial activity,” said Thea Lee, policy director at the AFL-CIO.

“The big disadvantage of most taxes is that they discourage some really productive activity,” she said. “This would discourage numerous financial transactions. People flip their assets several times in an hour or a day. They make money but does it really add to the productive base of the United States?”


Wow - someone needs to go back to school and take a stock/options class. "Speculative financial activity" is the grease that keeps the market fluid. Tax the action & the markets suddenly become much stiffer & unable to respond to changes.

Terrain, Modeling and More... Chicago Terrain Factory
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Frazzled wrote:Its a tax on middle class retirement plans.


Hmm.. not quite.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

reds8n wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Its a tax on middle class retirement plans.


Hmm.. not quite.


Sigh lets back up and do a quick tutorial.

If you are middle class in the US then you wil have something called a 401K, IRA, or other savings plan. If not for your retirement, then to try to pay for your kids college.
Those are investments in stocks, bonds, and other securities. This proposes a tax on those trades.

So yes, you are being taxed.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

The tax is being levied on the company/brokers who make the transactions, not the individuals. Sure the companys might/could pass this expense on.... but I would suggest seeing as they have reported $3.5 billion profit they could ( and should ) take the hit. Or if they do pass it on then move your investment to a firm that doesn't or stick it in another form of investment.


You're making it out to be some form of capital gains tax type affair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/01 13:43:42


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

reds8n wrote:The tax is being levied on the company/brokers who make the transactions, not the individuals. Sure the companys might/could pass this expense on.... but I would suggest seeing as they have reported $3.5 billion profit they could ( and should ) take the hit. Or if they do pass it on then move your investment to a firm that doesn't or stick it in another form of investment.


You're making it out to be some form of capital gains tax type affair.


No it would be levied on EACH transaction. That impacts everyone that owns stock in the US.

would like to assess a small tax — about a tenth of a percent — on every stock transaction.

The firms mentioned would be hit because they make substantial #s of trades for their own account.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Yes, being able to read I can tell that the tax is on each transaction. And the transactions are carried out by whom ? Oh yeah, the multi billion $ company which could afford to pay them easily.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

And who the do you think is going to pay that tax? Their clients-the freeking middle class.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

..it's almost like I might have covered that in an earlier post.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I think we're disagreeing on where that tax is going to be paid.

Are we?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

*looks shifty*.Maybe....

I'd say more "whom" than where, but it's all good baby. I think describing it as a tax ( exclusively or even largely) on "the middle classes" ( in "classless" America..go figure ?) is a bit.....hmm....disingenious shall we say.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

It will impact the middle class however, who are the greatest number of shareholders in the US.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

ANY action will impact upon a sizable % of the population though.

And again, ONLY if the we're-still-raking-it-in-hand-over-fist companies such as the one mentioned don't suck it up and pass the costs on to their customers. Which if they do then said customers would be able to leave and take their investments elsewhere, say to a different investment method or to a company which wouldn't pass said costs on.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

reds8n wrote:ANY action will impact upon a sizable % of the population though.

And again, ONLY if the we're-still-raking-it-in-hand-over-fist companies such as the one mentioned don't suck it up and pass the costs on to their customers. Which if they do then said customers would be able to leave and take their investments elsewhere, say to a different investment method or to a company which wouldn't pass said costs on.


Its a tax on transactions. Every house will pass it on. They have to. They only make a few cents per transaction anyway-you're eliminating their income.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

Okay, so they make... 1 cent,say, off of each transaction. And they now pay .1% of that to the treasury. That aint crippling. A tax like that doesn't cripple you if you're making $3.44 billion PROFIT in a single quarter in a recession.

They don't "have to" pass on any tax increase at all.

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

reds8n wrote:Okay, so they make... 1 cent,say, off of each transaction. And they now pay .1% of that to the treasury. That aint crippling. A tax like that doesn't cripple you if you're making $3.44 billion PROFIT in a single quarter in a recession.

They don't "have to" pass on any tax increase at all.


1 cent is the revenue. Take the costs out and its .1 cent. Add on the tax and its no cent.

Tax will be passed on as fee to the client. It always is. There's almost never a circumstance of not being. Its a sales tax.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

"always is"..really ? Commonly, yeah I'd agree, but ( over here anyway) it's not that unusual mfor a company to swallow the costs of a small tax rise, even if only for a short period of time.


If you're only making .1 off of every cent then you don't make $3.44 billion PROFIT in a quarter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/01 15:31:49


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

reds8n wrote:"always is"..really ? Commonly, yeah I'd agree, but ( over here anyway) it's not that unusual mfor a company to swallow the costs of a small tax rise, even if only for a short period of time.


If you're only making .1 off of every cent then you don't make $3.44 billion PROFIT in a quarter.

1. Its not common here.
2. you're mixing apples and oranges on the profitability. You're probably thinking of one of the big investment houses. That money was underwritings: securities, M&A, etc. ; and trading on their own accounts. etc. thats where the bank is.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





The proposed tax is a dreadful idea. The value of a stock market comes from low transaction costs, leading to large volumes of trade, in turn leading to accurate pricing. Taxes based on volume act against the very reason that stock markets exist at all.

Meanwhile, it's fun to see the politics of the proposed tax run through the standard talking points. Tax hike? It'll hit the wealthy. No, it'll hit the middle class. Wealthy! Middle class! Gah. A tax on trading volume isn't going to do much to directly hit Mum & Dad and their 401K, unless Mum & Dad are cycling through a few thousand units a day. But, as I said above, that's not the point, the point is that a tax like this will harm trading volume, reducing liquidity leading to poorer pricing. It's exactly what you don't do to operate a financial market.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Master Sergeant




SE Michigan

And reducing Liquidity will increase the burden on the lower/middle classes by reducing the amount of capital available for home loans/car loans/any loan. Therefore increasing the interest rates paid....

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, I wish politicians would learn to think ahead to the unintended consequences of their actions
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

R3con wrote:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, I wish politicians would learn to think ahead to the unintended consequences of their actions


yep there's your problem right thar maam:

politicans learn to think?
politicans think ahead?
politicians think about consequences of their actions?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Master Sergeant




SE Michigan

Frazzled wrote:
R3con wrote:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, I wish politicians would learn to think ahead to the unintended consequences of their actions


yep there's your problem right thar maam:

politicans learn to think?
politicans think ahead?
politicians think about consequences of their actions?


Oh i know, one cannot stop me from wishing though.

   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

It'd be easier to just eliminate the tax break for capital gains. Any middle class income made through capital gains is simply taxed at their normal tax rate, while wealthier individuals make more. Or even limit how much profit can be taxed at the capital gains rate per year.

Also, eliminate the treatment of dividends as capitial gains.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/01 19:29:35


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

all cap gains or cap gains on stocks?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





R3con wrote:And reducing Liquidity will increase the burden on the lower/middle classes by reducing the amount of capital available for home loans/car loans/any loan. Therefore increasing the interest rates paid....


Ah, no, stock market depth and liquidity is a wholly seperate thing to personal financing. Basically, a tax targetted at a single market will not have the macro effects you're suggesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/02 05:24:23


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
 
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