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I was mulling over the whole Hollywood Space Marine idea this morning and this led on to me me thinking about how the other races work in 40k. It was at this point I wondered if there was a major floor that 40k had been getting away for sometime now.

Using Marines as the basic example. When rolling to wound, the targets Toughness is taken into account when working out if you've wounded them. However there is nothing in the to hit section that covers races that move fast. In the fluff for example, Eldar and Nids are fast moving armies, so surely when targetting them there should be a modifier to take this into account?

I think some things get Inv saves for being very fast. Possibly Death Cult assasins.

Wolfstan wrote:I was mulling over the whole Hollywood Space Marine idea this morning and this led on to me me thinking about how the other races work in 40k. It was at this point I wondered if there was a major floor that 40k had been getting away for sometime now.

Using Marines as the basic example. When rolling to wound, the targets Toughness is taken into account when working out if you've wounded them. However there is nothing in the to hit section that covers races that move fast. In the fluff for example, Eldar and Nids are fast moving armies, so surely when targetting them there should be a modifier to take this into account?

Moving fast doesn't help when a 500RPM Rocketlaucher is firing at you. Their Speed is represented by Fleet. Some models who are OMFGKILLYFAST™ get invulnerable saves to show this, such as Assasins and Ragnar

moving to discussions. IThis isn't YMDC but not sure where.

Actually, its kind of nice. The ENTIRE 40k world is stopmotion and so your opponent can't move at all when you are shooting.

The probable reason that fast armies don't benefit from speed against shooting is that, compared to bullets and lasers vehicles and people relatively all move the same speed. Plus Fast Vehicles to get a benefit, when actually moving all out by getting a 4+ cover save. That is about all we can ask for from a game.

If that happend everyone would be playing Tyranids.

Well, jetbikes and some fast vehicles get a cover save to represent moving fast, and I think Harlequins get some kind of random cover save. Everyone else I think has it right, those that can 'bullet-time dodge' get an invulnerable save.

Gwar! wrote:Moving fast doesn't help when a 500RPM Rocketlaucher is firing at you.

At the risk of being pedantic, what does the number of times a minute that the missile spins have anything to do with how fast it's going?

daedalus wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Moving fast doesn't help when a 500RPM Rocketlaucher is firing at you.

At the risk of being pedantic, what does the number of times a minute that the missile spins have anything to do with how fast it's going?

RMP Means Rounds Per Minute. I know it is the Incorrect term, but I am not a Military expert and could not be arsed to find the correct acronym.

I figured there would be some kind of To Hit matrix of Ballistic Skill on one hand, and cover on the other. The only problem is that given cover is already covered via cover saves, cover doubles up its value.

Basically you'd have to extensively modify the game to implement a To Hit matrix like close combat.

daedalus wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Moving fast doesn't help when a 500RPM Rocketlaucher is firing at you.

At the risk of being pedantic, what does the number of times a minute that the missile spins have anything to do with how fast it's going?

I see what you did there.

Fast moving armies benefit by being able to close to H2H in fewer rounds, thus minimising the number of shots at them.

Alternatively they can move more quickly into cover.

I suspect most people writing along the lines that "compared to a bullet, most thing's speed doesn't matter" have never actually tried to shoot something that is moving quickly. Small, fast objects darting around are more difficult to hit. When shooting, size, speed and distance are the big factors. With modern direct fire weapons, projectile speed is only relevant in terms of whether or not it arcs more or less during flight.

In previous editions they had modifiers to hit based on cover and the like. Presumably one could have added a modifier for "Fast Targets" like eldar that moved at full movement speed that turn, say 6".
It would work sort of like Cover saves for fast vehicles now, so perhaps as a quick 5th Edition bolt on you could add that units that Ran or used Fleet get a +1 cover save bonus. Whether or not to limit it to models with Fleet depends on how much you want to weaken shooting across the board.

Wasn't such a system covered in, oh - I don't know, RT 40k or something?

I do seem to fuzzily recall some system of modifiers that reduced your chance of hitting based on how fast the target moved AND how far you had moved as well.

2nd ed had them as well. You got a -1 to hit for soft cover, -2 for hard. -1 for past half distance of the weapon and additional penalties for how fast the target unit had moved that turn. Kinda like Warhammer Fantasy has.

I think the BS system in 40K is more reasonable for what it works in, considering the level of tech associated with the game. We can assume that some units might have mechanisms that compensate for range and accuracy, including the power level of the weapons...everything after that is operator error based on their level of training.

2nd ed also had to hit modifiers based on target movement speed. Eldar Dark Reapers negated the penalty to hit such targets

Yep, this was the reason for the 'wingnut' helmets on them.

There was a vehicle mod that did the same thing for eldar vehicles.

As it is now, the whole system of mods was deemed 'too hard' and dropped (even though the AP system isn't far different from it) with the advent of 3rd ed.

that idea is dumb. Eldar do not run any faster than anyone else. Thier skimmer get saves, but then again there are other fast vehicles out there that get no such thing.

I don't see how a genestealer running fast through a wall of hellhound fire makes it harder to hit.

smart_alex wrote:that idea is dumb. Eldar do not run any faster than anyone else. Thier skimmer get saves, but then again there are other fast vehicles out there that get no such thing.

I don't see how a genestealer running fast through a wall of hellhound fire makes it harder to hit.

*facepalm*

Eldar are considerably faster than almost every other race (genestealers and slaaneshi daemons are the only competitors).

Their skimmers get saves because they move REALLY fast, as in almost impossible to target and thus get an extra save.

And your last point is just foolish, the genestealer is hard to hit because:
1. they can run out of the way of the incoming tanks/fire
2. its hard to point your gun (targetting) at something that moves faster than you can point
3. a genestealer would bite your fething hand off, ram their 3rd arm down its own throat then pull out the coin and kill you with it before you even noticed it.

Nice other thread reference.
I would assume that sm, eldar, tau, imp guard storm troopers and the like would have built-in targeters to compensate.

Wll, you know what assuming does....

I mentioned the DR targeter because modifiers did have a role in the game in it's past incarnations. Targeters were wargear that other armies could get the +1 bonus to hit as well: all Terminators had them built in and Bionic Eye wargear acted as multi-senses (countering smoke effects, reducing cameleoline) and a targeter. These were the exceptions rather than the rule, however...

In the same edition, eldar moved a standard 6" while other foot troops moved 4" so they were considered faster and more nimble at the time. They weren't any harder to hit though, and the penalties for that were reserved for models moving 18" or more in a give turn.

What I find nteresting is that GW makes an effort to keep their system from being *too* complicated (/sarcasm) and our school system (in FL, US that is) is teaching advanced math at younger and younger ages...

starbomber109 wrote:Well, jetbikes and some fast vehicles get a cover save to represent moving fast, and I think Harlequins get some kind of random cover save. Everyone else I think has it right, those that can 'bullet-time dodge' get an invulnerable save.

And those are moving 24"? an eldar (example from the OP) moves 6 runs d6? big difference there. And whilst i agree with Wehrkind that "I suspect most people writing along the lines that "compared to a bullet, most thing's speed doesn't matter" have never actually tried to shoot something that is moving quickly...With modern direct fire weapons, projectile speed is only relevant in terms of whether or not it arcs more or less during flight. " 3 things that pop to mind is 1) this isn't really modern weapons =\ 2) If you spent as much time practicing with your bolter as a marine, I'd say you would be a crack of a shot (better than BS 4 lol) and 3) if we try and analyze 40k mechanics too much, we all know we will go insane trying to fit it into reality.

Having said that, i do kinda wish the game a bit more fluff thrown into the gameplay. I like the way that the game has been streamlined since earlier editions, but all the random crap was kinda cool =\

You do have to realise that the number of dice you roll are NOT the number of shots you take. 90% of the shooting is not represented, and consists of things like covering fire etc.

What those shots represent are the probability that your shots might have 1 or 2 that hit the mark and you find out if those ones do any damage.

A Bolter is a God Damn SMG Missile Launcher. I think it can fire more than 2 Shots at a time

Gwar! wrote:You do have to realise that the number of dice you roll are NOT the number of shots you take. 90% of the shooting is not represented, and consists of things like covering fire etc.

What those shots represent are the probability that your shots might have 1 or 2 that hit the mark and you find out if those ones do any damage.

A Bolter is a God Damn SMG Missile Launcher. I think it can fire more than 2 Shots at a time

Gwar is right.

Much the same can be said for wounding characters with multiple wounds. That heavy bolter shot that wounded your Farseer didn't give him just a nasty scrape, he'd probably be rolling around clutching at the stump of his leg.