2000 DH with Inducted Guard

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**Gornall**

I'm starting up a DH army to go with my normal Marines, and was curious as to what people thought of my end-goal 2000 point list.

HQ
Grand Master with NFW and Psychic Hood
GKT x4 (3 NFW, 1 TH/SS)

Elite
Inquisitor
Mystic
Mystic

Troops
PAGK x8 with 1 Incinerator (Justicar has Targeter and Frags)
IST x5 with MGx2 and Rhino with Smoke Launchers
IST x5 with MGx2 and Rhino with Smoke Launchers

Inducted Guard Platoon

PCS
Flamer x2
Chimera with Multi-Laser/Hull HF

Infantry Squad 1
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
Chimera with Multi-Laser/Hull HF

Infantry Squad 2
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
Chimera with Multi-Laser/Hull HF

Heavy
GKLR with Dozer Blade, Smoke Launchers, and Extra Armor (Carries PAGK)
GKLR with Dozer Blade, Smoke Launchers, and Extra Armor (Carries Inquisitor)
GKLRC with Dozer Blade (Carries Grand Master)

It's light on PAGKs, but I think the IST provide much-needed Melta support while the IG Platoon offers some more heavy weapons and some cheap bodies. It has two decent counter assault units, both in AV14 boxes and 3 AV 12 Chimeras putting out Mult-laser shots (and maybe I should do HB instead of HF since I plan to use them as pillboxes) each turn while protecting sniping Lascannon/Plasma Gun Guardsmen. Rhinos will be used as "mobile" melta and cover for other units. Any thoughts?

**Gornall**

Any advice at all?

**Polonius**

I played a guy the other week with an 1850 triple landraider DH list and it was pretty nasty.

That said, I'm worried about a few things. I like the cheap chimeras on the las/plas squads, but you're paying a lot of points for some middling fire power. Consider dropping the chimeras and swapping ac/gl for the las/plas. That buys you 150pts.

I like PAGKs, but they're simply underperformers. Consider dropping them. That will give another 240pts, for 390pts total.

Buy a third landraider (as a dedicated Transport for the Inquisitor), buy three melta guns for the inquistor squad, add two more flamers to the PCS, and spend the rest on toys.

**Gornall**

I updated the list a little bit:

HQ
Grand Master
GKT x4 (NFWx3, TH/SS, Incinerator)

Elite
Inquisitor
Mystic
Mystic

Troops
IST x5 w/ MGx2 Rhino, DB, SL, Smoke Launchers
IST x5 w/ MGx2 Rhino, DB, SL, Smoke Launchers
PAGK x8 with Incinerator (1 Frag, 1 Targeter)

Inducted IG Platoon
PCS (Flamerx3) Chimera (ML, HF)
Squad 1 (GL/AC) Chimera (ML, HF)
Squad 2 (GL/AC) Chimera (ML, HF)

Heavy
GKLR (DB, Smoke Launcher, EA)
GKLR (DB, Smoke Launcher, EA)
GKLRC (DB, Smoke Launcher)

Does losing the Lascannons/PGS remove too much of my AP2 capability? I don't want to drop the Chimeras as having vehicles to hide in is too good to pass up.

**Jimmy82**

Honestly for a squad loaded down with a heavy weapon hiding behind the Chimera is probably the worst option. You either have to wait until you get where you want (could take 2 turns or more) or you might end up blocking fire lanes. Or if you deploy outside the transport you negate the whole purpose of the transport except for it's own weapon systems.

I would ditch the chimera's for the heavy squads and upgrade or add more las/plas. Better to put your heavy weapons out and be able to use em on turn 1.

**Matt1785**

From what I can see, you might as well just play Guard and ally with Grey Knights. If you're going to induct guard, why bother with Stormtroopers?

Drop the strormtroopers and the Inquisitor and bulk up on your Grey Knights. If they're underperformers in the army, you aren't using 'em right.

PAGK are expensive but they're heavy hitters and carry in one hand probably one of the best ranged weapons in the game, the Stormbolter.

As far as the Inducted go, load 'em up with Melta and rush them to blow up the opposing armor, if your 3 Land Raiders don't do it for you.

Keep the Guard in the Chimeras, you have to, they have practically no save, and just about everything causes them to run like ladies.

PAGK are fearless, they take a licking and keep on kicking serious butt.

[Edit] Also, drop the LRC and take a regular Land Raider. Grey Knights don't rush into battle, they are old and wise, stand back, shoot as it comes for you, then when you have to, smite your foes up close with your CC prowess.

**Gornall**

If I took guard with Grey Knight allies, then I couldn't use LRs.

I went with the ISTs for the extra meltas, and I thought the IG would add some cheap bodies, Autocannons, and the new, improved, and cheaper Chimeras. I was planning on using the ISTs as my mobile melta platforms/LOS blockers while the Chimeras stand off and fire Multi-lasers/Autocannons before making pushes for objectives. Should I just forget about the IG and go with more PAGKs and ISTs? I hate to lose the extra S6/7 shots (one of my main opponents runs annoying warwalkers).

I probably will take the DBs off the Rhinos to give the Platoons (if I keep them) meltas instead of the GLs, just for some extra punch. I really wish I could get Veteran Squads for the Melta x3. :(

I like the idea of switching the LRC for another LR. I wasn't intending to bum-rush with it, but hold it back to provide mid-range firepower while staying mobile and a long-range counter-assault. However, the extra lascannons might help, especially if I drop a IST squad.

Dropping the Inquisitor/Mysitics could work and would provide another available ride for PAGKs. It might leave me more vulnerable to deepstriking meltas though. I might have to play with that and see how it works.

Once I can get back to my codex I'll revise the list and post an update.

**Matt1785**

Oh no, I didn't say lose the Inducted Guard, keep those. I'd drop the ISTs since they are expensive and partake of the more expensive Chimeras.

I see where you're going with anti-DS Inquisitors, with the prevalence of Vulkan armies it's getting harder and harder for my Land Raiders to survive!

I only use LRCs for my large GKT squads with a GM. Ours are the best because the Hurricane bolters fire NO MATTER HOW FAR YOU MOVE!!

Awesome. So if you want to keep it, it'll work good against your Ork and Tyranid foes.

Personally I am about to start an Elysian Guard Army as a supplement to my GK army but I'll be playing the Elysians as my parent list and then bringing in my GKs. I lose the Land Raiders but I gain the Valkyries and other heavy support. Plus, all my IG troops with be Vets.

Just like you want. I kind of wish we could ally vets to us as well. It would be awesome.

What armies do you generally face? Maybe if I knew what you were shaping the army to fight I could more understand.

**ManwithIronHands**

The problem with dropping those IQST's is He needs 2 units of troops before he can induct anything and having 2 squads of PAGKs is expensive.

I would drop the chimeras for those guard squads as your giving them heavy weapons, use those extra points to buy more heavy weapon squads (with the new platoon structure you can get 3-15 more heavy weapons) or more guardsmen.

**Gornall**

Thanks for all the suggestions! Keep 'em coming!

I'm trying to keep it as all-comers as possible, but I definately have a fairly unique meta. The armies I regularly face include:

1. Mech Council Eldar (Eldrad, Yriel, Council in WS, 2 squads of Firedragons in WS, a couple of DA squads in WS, and 2 Warwalker squads with Scatterlasers) This guy is my toughest opponent, so I want to have a good shot against him at least
2. Double Prince CSM (alternates between Daemon bomb and Rhino Rush/Oblit Spam)
3. Drop Pod Marines
4. Tau (both Suit Heavy and Mech)
5. Nidzilla (not too big of an issue)
6. Horde Orks (pretty infrequent)
7. Chaos Daemons (very infrequent)

Those are the guys I play pretty much every week, but I sometimes travel to another store nearby and play random people too.

I'm sticking with DH as the parent army for now, simply because I already have 3 LRs from my Marines, so that will cut down on the stuff I have to buy for a bit. I do agree that IG as the parent would probably be stronger, though. But yeah, for now I still need to keep at least the PAGK squad and either another PAGK squad or another IST to get my compulsory choices out of the way.

So most people are against the Chimeras? That's interesting as I'm used to EVERYTHING having a transport. My Eldar opponent likes to wipe out infantry squads with the Warwalkers, which is why I was planning on bunkering inside the Chimeras and fire the Autocannon/GL out the top. Should I maybe steal the Chimeras from the IG platoons and use them instead of Rhinos for the IST rides? For 2 points more than the Rhino with Smoke Launchers, I can fire the whole squad out of the top hatch and not have it be open topped and still have the Multi-Laser/Heavy Flamer. Dropping the 2 Rhinos and 1 Chimera would leave me with 150ish points to buy either more Guardsmen/Weapons (I don't think HWT would last long, but SWTs might work) or even a TLLC Dreadnought.

Once again, thanks for the help so far. I'm definately taking into consideration what everyone is saying and will post a new list ASAP. Until then, please keep the comments coming.

**Fafnir**

Drop the PAGKs, buy more terminators. PAGK suck. GK termies are fething awesome. Also, a bigger terminator retinue means more ablative wounds for taking out those pesky enemy characters and monsters. That, and it makes them all the more deadly.

Also, I'd go all out with your Grand Master. Give him all the goodies you think he needs. He's one of the most lethal characters in the game. If you're going to invest in him, you might as well go all the way and give him whatever you want, don't hold back.

Might want to consider a Callidus or Eversor assassin. You have an inquisitor, might as well make them worth a bit more. YMMV of course.

**ManwithIronHands**

Fafnir wrote:Drop the PAGKs, buy more terminators. PAGK suck. GK termies are fething awesome. Also, a bigger terminator retinue means more ablative wounds for taking out those pesky enemy characters and monsters. That, and it makes them all the more deadly.

Also, I'd go all out with your Grand Master. Give him all the goodies you think he needs. He's one of the most lethal characters in the game. If you're going to invest in him, you might as well go all the way and give him whatever you want, don't hold back.

Might want to consider a Callidus or Eversor assassin. You have an inquisitor, might as well make them worth a bit more. YMMV of course.

PAGKs dont suck, if you htink they do, your using them wrong. Yes GK termies are awesome but hes got a 5 man squad, sure he could take 2 or 3 more and still fit them in the crusader but removing a whole capturing unit, thats just insane

About the grand master theres really only 2 upgrades worth giving it if your not fighting chaos or deamons are the icon for the 4+ invuln save, and a psicannon. if you are add the grimoire and sacred incence.

an assassin would be a good idea

**Matt1785**

Here's what I would go with if you want to induct guard with what you're looking for.. or at least I think.

HQ: 434 Pts
Grand Master - Icon of the Just, Master-Crafted NFW, Psycannon, Grimoire of True Names (Good for those Daemon Princes and Avatars)
4x - Grey Knight Terminators / Psycannon (If you want, you can still give one a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer)

Troops: 771 pts
2x (7x Grey Knights 1 Justicar w/ Melta, Frag, Targeter)

Inducted Guard:
CCS - Sergent PF, Bolt Pistol - 3x Flamers (Chimera ML/HF)
Squad 1 & 2 - Grenade Launcher, Autocannon (Chimera ML/HF)

Heavy Support: 795
3x Land Raiders (EA, SL)

This gives you exactly 2000 points and you get your guard. Personally I'd slap the Meltas that you lose onto your guard squads to pop enemy armor if those three Land Raiders can't do it for you. For this, I'd drop the Grimoire from the GM and then up the two squads to have a Melta Gun.

Psycannons pack a S6 AP4 punch from 36" with terminators so I'd say do it. Don't bother with the Incinerators on the PAGK squads, but if you do want them, go ahead and dump the Psycannon from the retinue and then plop them on both PAGK squads. A little extra kick out of the Land Raider, but you lose the S6 CC attacks.
Throw the Grey Knights into the Land Raiders and drive them around to capture objectives or kill things that are trying to hold them. You don't need to have squads larger then 7, it's usually overkill. Our Smoke Launchers are the best with cutting down penetrating hits to glancing, and our extra armor is only 5 points. Ha! Good luck to yah though.

**Fafnir**

ManwithIronHands wrote:
PAGKs dont suck, if you htink they do, your using them wrong. Yes GK termies are awesome but hes got a 5 man squad, sure he could take 2 or 3 more and still fit them in the crusader but removing a whole capturing unit, thats just insane

When you pay 25 per man, PAGK do suck. They die just like normal marines, and don't have much to show for it. WS5 and S6 is great, but PAGK lack the attacks to make it actually useful. You're pretty much paying 10 points for a storm bolter. If he needs another scoring unit, he'd be better off just throwing in something cheaper/better.

**Gornall**

Okay... I have been playing around with the list and I'm going to go crazy with the allies:

HQ
GM (MC NFW and Pyschic Hood)
4 GKT (1 TH/SS and 1 Incinerator)

Troops
PAGK x 8 with Incinerator (Targeter, and Frags on Justicar)
ISTx5 with 2x MG
Sisters of Battle Squad with MGx2, VSS with BoSL (to keep the IG in line)
IG Platoon:
PCS with Autocannon and Chimera with ML/HF
Infantry Squad 1 with GL/AC and Chimera with ML/HF
Infantry Squad 2 with GL/AC and Chimera with ML/HF
(will probably blob most of the time)

Elite
Inquistor with Mystic x2 and Vet IG with MGx2

Heavy
GKLR with DB, EA, and SL
GKLR with DB, EA, and SL
GKLRC with DB and SL

The Sisters, Inquistor, and IST all steal the Chimeras on Turn 1 for joy rides and MG drive-bys. I'm thinking about dropping a PAGK to give the GM a 4+ save to buy him some more survivability. I think it gives me a lot more bodies than a normal GK list and some solid shooting at all ranges and strengths. I have lasguns to force saves on Termies, Autocannons/Multilasers/GLs to shoot at light vehicles, Lascannons for MCs and heavier tanks, meltas for the big nasties, and Bolters/Stormbolters for everything else. The GM and retinue should be able to hold their own as a counter-assault unit and the PAGK can bully most light troops off an objective if needed. I know it doesn't have the focus of a solid tournament list, but I think it can be a decent all-rounder list and give me a start on my goal to have the main forces of the Imperium (Astartes, IG, and Inquistion).

**Gornall**

Any more feedback?

**phantommaster**

Drop the Battle Sisters and the IST's. Instead have a pumped up Canoness with this:

Celestians x5 w/ HF and Melta gun, Sacred Standard (Fafnir was moaning about PAGK not having enough attacks) and Imagifier
Veteran superior w/ Plasma Pistol and power weapon
all in
Immolator, multi melta, hunter killer missile.
=262?pts

I've purposely left the Canoness's wargear for you to choose.

**Gornall**

Unfortunately I can't drop the IST. I have to to take 2 squads from the DH codex before I can take allies.

**Fafnir**

You still want to keep the PAGK, so you have enough to drop one set of IST.

**Gornall**

Oops! I didn't make that list very clear. It's just one squad of IST.

**Matt1785**

You have to either pick Grey Knights, or you pick Stormtroopers. The two troops choices must be either 2 Grey Knight Squads or 2 Stormtrooper squads before your list is even legal. It's in the Codex.

**Gornall**

Matt1785 wrote:You have to either pick Grey Knights, or you pick Stormtroopers. The two troops choices must be either 2 Grey Knight Squads or 2 Stormtrooper squads before your list is even legal. It's in the Codex.

I couldn't find that in the Codex. What's the page number?

**Matt1785**

Don't have the Codex on me... pretty sure it's on the page that details the force organization chart. Near the bottom of the page it says your two compulsory have to be two of the same type.

**Gornall**

Still can't find it... anyone want to help me out?

**Fafnir**

You can't find it because that rule doesn't exist.

**Matt1785**

Found it, it's on the picture pages just before you start seeing the colored shots of the army. It states that your troops are compiled of Grey Knights or Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. To me, that means you can't mix the two together to get your force... I know it is written more clearly in the Codex.. can't remember here though. I've read it in there, and also in that spot.

[EDIT] It is very likely that I am reading too much into that, it might not be a set rule. Oh well.

**Fafnir**

Daemonhunters Codex page 38 wrote:Pure Daemonhunters Army. In this case, all the units you include in your army are chosen from this book. All Troops choices are made up of Grey Knights or Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, the army is commanded by an Inquisitor Lord and/or a Grey Knights Hero. In the example below we have added an additional Inquisitor and Retinue and Grey Knights Terminator squad as Elites choices, a Grey Knights Teleport Attack squad as a Fast Attack choice, and a Grey Knights Dreadnought as Heavy Support.

First, that's for Daemonhunters without allies. Second, although it says "All Troops choices are made up of Grey Knights or Inquisitorial Stormtroopers," it doesn't mean that they're exclusive to one-another. It's also worth noting that this is not stated anywhere in the rulebook, and is not covered by any actual rules section either.

The DH codex is still a poorly written unedited piece of gak, but you're still wrong.

**Kreedos**

What I don't understand is why don't you take a Leman Russ? You've got all the prereqs to take one, and it's much cheaper than a Land Raider.

Also, the rules to take a Grey Knight army and induct Space Marines, IG or Sisters is on page 30 and 31. The rules state you can only take Infantry Platoons, One Rough Riders Squad, One Sentinel Squadron, and one Leman Russ Battle Tank.

Also, you can only choose to induct 1 army, IG, Sisters or Space Marines. If you choose to take Space Marines, you can't have any Grey Knights in your force.

**Gornall**

Kreedos wrote:What I don't understand is why don't you take a Leman Russ? You've got all the prereqs to take one, and it's much cheaper than a Land Raider.

Also, the rules to take a Grey Knight army and induct Space Marines, IG or Sisters is on page 30 and 31. The rules state you can only take Infantry Platoons, One Rough Riders Squad, One Sentinel Squadron, and one Leman Russ Battle Tank.

Also, you can only choose to induct 1 army, IG, Sisters or Space Marines. If you choose to take Space Marines, you can't have any Grey Knights in your force.

You can't take a Leman Russ unless you take 2 troop choices from the IG codex. Unfortunately, a Platoon only counts as one. If I could do Vets, then yeah, I'd definately jump on that.

I know that you can't take both IG and Space Marines as allies (and if you have Grey Knights in your army, you can't even take SMs to begin with), but I didn't think it had the same restriction on IG and Sisters. I do not have a copy of the Sisters codex, so I'm making an assumption that it reads the same way as the DH entry "Taking Daemonhunters as Allies" where it says "Daemonhunters (assuming that the WH codex replaces this with "Witch Hunters") cannot ally with a force that uses any other type of ally with the exception of sepearate detachments and units from other Ordos of the Inquistion." I was under the impression that this meant that I could take both Ordos of the Inquistion in the same army along with another ally, but I could be very wrong.

EDIT: According to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/252735.page I'm not off my rocker.

**Fafnir**

You can use both branches of the Inquisition and IG/SM, but only if the main army in your force is Inquisitional.

Of course, fitting that all together is questionable.