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Come on, Bikes are the coolest thing out with AT weaponry 18" range on assault, zipping around mad max style . But then the hack-lust kicks in and the thought of cheaper, deep strikable, flamer-full squad of assualt marines flying around like angels on steroids mopping up mass infantry is just too good to resist . You only have 3 FA choices... What to choose, What to choose?... Any thoughts?

Three FA choices, but none of them scoring.

I'd prefer Bikers over Assault Marines as they look cooler and can get two special weapons like meltas and plasma guns.
Even with plasma guns, they can shoot and charge.

However, Bikers do not excel in cc due to the low number of attacks.

If you play Chaos, I'd consider Nurgle Bikers.

If you want Bikes, take ALL bikes. If you want assault marines, take at least one ten man squad.

Im not sure about mixing the two, but bike armies are good.

Bikes are gakky in CC BTW.

If you want Bikers, I'd consider Ravenwing.
RW Bikers are fearless and a full unit of Bikers including Tornado and Attack Bike can be combat squadded to give four scoring units.

I just wanted to hear the debate really, i have no FA as yet and there was a period of time i was in love with the idea of bikes, but i am now more towards Assault. i'm acquiring 10 soon enough. i play a custom SM chapter of my own devising but it's just the rules outta the regular SM dex. my army i'm aiming to amass is HQ: Librarian, M.ot.Forge Troop: 6x 10xTactical w/flam no ML Elite: 10x Assualt term, all TH and SS, 2x Dread with CC weapon HVY flam and MM. HS: dev squad 3 ML 1 LC, 2 dreads ML and LC FA: probs all Assault still deciding and about a buhzillion freaking drop pods

Bikes and AM are completely different units, and fill different objectives. You might as well be asking "Which drink do you like more, cappuccino or vodka?"

Bikes
Bikes fill the role of fire support. They can deliver extra firepower where you need it, and are fairly durable troops.
Are you having problems with facing DPs? A bike squad with 2 plasma guns an HB attack bike may be the cure for your woes!
To much mech got you down? Try using 2 melta guns and a MM attack bike and see what happens to tanks!
Point for point, the advantages of bike marines are remarkable, and its why I run a bike army.

Assault Marines
Assault marines provide fast deployment of CC troops.
With the ability to move 12", ignore terrain, and assault 6", they can cross the battlefield quickly -- and for a much cheaper cost than a LR with TH/SS termies.
Assault marines also provide a great delivery mechanism for specific jump infantry HQ choices, like Dante.
Another trick is to buy a 5 man AM squad and give them a rhino instead of jump packs. This makes for the cheapest rhino in the game, and you can use it to transport other marines, or just be mobile cover.

wuestenfux wrote:If you want Bikers, I'd consider Ravenwing.
RW Bikers are fearless and a full unit of Bikers including Tornado and Attack Bike can be combat squadded to give four scoring units.

Fearless is a double edged blade when it comes to bikes.
While having your bikes run 3d6" right off the board can be annoying, its countered by the ability to voluntary lose combat fall back and auto-rally. I've used that tactic to great effect when my bikes are caught in battle with DPs, Dreadnoughts, etc...
Personally I think that the vanilla marine bikes are superior to Ravenwing.

Fearless is a double edged blade when it comes to bikes.
While having your bikes run 3d6" right off the board can be annoying, its countered by the ability to voluntary lose combat fall back and auto-rally. I've used that tactic to great effect when my bikes are caught in battle with DPs, Dreadnoughts, etc...
Personally I think that the vanilla marine bikes are superior to Ravenwing.

Fearlessness vs. volunteeringly falling back is an issue.
If the unit is not in combat its eventually better to have a fearless unit.
In cc, its probably vice versa.

Considering that Ravenwing also cost... what 50% more than C:SM bikers, it's really no contest.

If they were the same points cost then fearless vs. combat tactics+ ATSKNF would still edge out on the side of the Codex bikers... but for more points Ravenwing are simply no good at all.

Well, if you play Dark Angels, you have no other option.
And RW Bikers have a scout move that lets them outflank.
This is priceless in some situation if you face Eldar Pathfinders or Fire Warriors sitting deep in the enemy's depolyment zone.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, if you play Dark Angels, you have no other option.
And RW Bikers have a scout move that lets them outflank.
This is priceless in some situation if you face Eldar Pathfinders or Fire Warriors sitting deep in the enemy's depolyment zone.

I think the moral of this story is don't play dark angels.

willydstyle wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, if you play Dark Angels, you have no other option.
And RW Bikers have a scout move that lets them outflank.
This is priceless in some situation if you face Eldar Pathfinders or Fire Warriors sitting deep in the enemy's depolyment zone.

I think the moral of this story is don't play dark angels.

Not each player has this option.
Some guys have a large Dark Angels army.
RW Bikers are not too bad.

Play them as Green Marines.

my tactics are to take a captain on bike and a nice big bikers unit that count as troops thanks to mounted assult rule.
and 5 assultmarines are one nice distraction

The scout rule of the ravenwing is a really good one.

Outflanking can be risky, but not to bad. The standard board is 6' long, and takes 3 turns of turbo boosting to completely cross. As most opponents will not be sitting right on a board edge, you can estimate that a bad outflank roll will keep your unit out of the action for 1-2 turns.
Now weight that into the advantage of popping your melta's right behind the tanks, and your looking at a decent option.
Be wary of trying this on IG, as they can really throw a wrench in your plan.

Just using good old scouting is not bad either. While RW cannot turbo-boost on the first turn due to a outdated codex, they can still go 12" closer, meaning that your MM bikes can easily be within 24" on turn 1. If your lucky, they can even be in 12".

RW bikes are good, and I like them, I just think that vanilla ones are overall a bit better

RW bikes are good, and I like them, I just think that vanilla ones are overall a bit better

Thanks for this vote.

My gaming group was complaining about my armies that I played in the RTTs (winning them all during the last year)
and so I decided to go for DW; it contains a RW BIker unit.

Don't take bikes. sure T4(5) sounds great but I like the mobility of an assult squad. Jumping towards the enemy and fly back is something that appeals to me. I never lose an assult with an assult squad

Well, assault squads are not exactly that scary.
It's what you can add to them that does get scary.

But bikers are like a vehicle less tactical squad, the Jack of All trades.

)__________
@penut the butter:

mobility of an assult squad.

What's the difference?
Bikes have the same effective engagement range, while bikes get turbo boost by trading it for the lack of running.

As to Ravenwing vs. Vanilla Bikers, they are different (repeating this until DA get a new dex) Vanilla SM bikers are hammers, while Ravenwing bikers are scalpels.

My 7 Cents.

As to Ravenwing vs. Vanilla Bikers, they are different (repeating this until DA get a new dex) Vanilla SM bikers are hammers, while Ravenwing bikers are scalpels.

Well spoken, RW Bikers are scalpels.
Scout move and outflanking make them tactically rather flexible.
Vanilla SM Bikers, however, are more predictable as they need to be deployed as normal.

good points and discussion, i'd like to point out though that i'm playing straight out of the regular SM dex. So RW and Vanilla's are irrelevant to me. But don't let that stop the discussion, i still like hearing it

Well, Vanilla means regular SM.

fail, shoots self i vow never to make that mistake again hahahaha, well then, everything makes more sense thank you

I prefer to Have My Cake And Eat It Too... Ok that is just way too outdated a saying to use.

Blood Angels...... 3 Assault Squads, that can hold objectives, and 3 Bike Squads to ride and... genocide? Yay!!!!

EDIT: I have seen this work, but in an older edition, the new codex makes this... small....

Well, Blood Angels can take Assault Marines as troops and or Veteran Assault Marines as elites.
So for Blood Angels, Bikers and Assault Marines do not really compete.

Well, Ravenwing or not, many of us can say that the Ravenwing Box set is a great deal. Crazy good deal. The only con I can think of is the lack of special weapons on them.

Ravenwing as a scalpel:
Fearless means they will do their job to the death, which is good, it's equivalent to steady hands required for the use of a scalpel.
Scouts means the application and usage are very fine and specific. They can get to where they need to be early and are able to deliver special weapons early in the game or charge what needs to be charge, or can opt to reserves or outlfank when there is nothing to deploy against...which has pros and cons, but it allows them to do what they need to do early.

Mistakes compound much faster as you have less bodies and are unable to make up for mistakes quickly. Basically, it's less forgiving, but if you get the right situations and make the locical decisions, you are able to take apart what you want, when you want it.

But, I just don't see Ravenwing run by itself, Doublewing seems to be the way to go.
With Deathwing, you make usage of the scouting teleport homers.
Now, they are 'sort' of the hammer that gives the army it's bite, but they are a scalpel as well, as their range contributions are still limited to storm bolter and the hvy weapons they have, which are comparable to a biker squads' firepower.

Again, it's application of force/pressure where you want it when you want it.
Terminators provide supporting fire and a combat no-go area, which is something bikes don't want to be, while bikes offer terminators delivery and special weapon delivery.

It's (IMO) an elegant force, it allows little mistakes and is utterly unforgiving for the user and for the opponent if things go the Doublewing's way.

I don't particularly like it, as it seems: win big/lose big for me, and it's generally like over 1-2 turns you can see where things are going.
I like the vanilla list cause it allows more flexibility in terms of how you want to play it. I see Ravenwing as YOU learning how to play IT, while Vanilla is molding the army to fit YOUR playstyle (Khan aside though).

Just some random thoughts.

My 7 Cents.

Right, RW Bikers have some synergy with DW Terminators due to the possible teleport attack in first turn.
As you said, it will generally take about 2 turns to see where things are going.
But RW Bikers do not need to be taken in this role.
There is the option to do so if the situation affords it.
For instance, if a Doublewing faces a shooty army like Tau or IG, then a teleport attack supported by RW Bikers at an enemy flank is eventually beneficiary.
Aganst armies geared towards assault, a teleport attack in first turn can be suicide.

Back to vanilla:
I don't know about you guys, but when I run a biker list and not some normal tac/mech list, I feel the hvy support section lacking, while the Fast Attacks become the hvy support.

It's wierd, but almost all of the hvy support just doesn't look appealing in a biker list.

Anyone get that feeling, or anyone have any extensive experience with the hvy support choices supporting bikers?

The most that I've used are:
2-3 Vindi.
2-3 Whirlwinds
2-3 Preds
At various point levels, but armor saturation is low.

The vindi is nice to bring in the anti-anything when in range, but with side armor and only target saturation they seem to be silenced easily and the opponent just moves on to other stuff.

Whirlwinds have been fun, but are heavily slanted towards infantry, which frankly, a biker list shouldn't have too much trouble unless it's pure infantry horde like IG/Orks/Tyranids, which do exist and in numbers, but it's not a crazy need for that many WW. They 'CAN' hide, but it's heavily dependent on the game stores' terrain.

Dakka Preds have been suggested to me. Sort of the middle of the range low priority with some lethality. Decent guns and rate of fire, decent defense at range. It was said that the preds add: (paraphrasing) "it increase the handle of the list", reaching out and touching, torrent of fire to threaten any infantry, can take on transports, and is still useful as a tank in the backfield.

Any other experiences?

My 7 Cents.

I've been toying with a bikes/dreads list, using MotF and Khan. Dreads in Pods + bikes should make a nice hammer/anvil

Back to vanilla:
I don't know about you guys, but when I run a biker list and not some normal tac/mech list, I feel the hvy support section lacking, while the Fast Attacks become the hvy support.

This seems obvious when you consider point costs.
Troops and HQ are a necessity, Bikers are expensive and thus there are eventually not enough points for decent HS.

However, vanilla SM has access to cheap and effective HS tanks like Predators with heavy bolter sponsons.

Taking 3 AC/HB preds is a quick and dirty way to make almost any marine list better.

@Willydstyle:
I'm not too impressed with them, but I may be missing something subtle.

Could you expand on that point?

I like the weight of fire of the Preds and the general armor saturation you can achieve with them coupled with a mech or semi-mech list, but why does it make 'any' marine list better?

Is one autocannon and 2 hvy bolters than good?
Does the AV13 front outweight the rhino side?
Does the cheap cost overweight any liability?

@Wuestenfux:
Yes, points is always an issue.
But Whirlwinds, Preds, and Vindi's are pretty cheap.
I'd say a dread can join into this group as well.

On second thought, what about dreads?
Theoryhammer suggests that they are a decent support unit, only lacking in speed which may look bad when coupled with bikes, but it provides cover fire and a counter charge/combat threat with a 12" bubble around it.

My 7 Cents.