Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play a lot of horde armies, and so I am a common user of the heatwave build for one of my crisis teams. First of all, for those who don't know, heatwave is twin-linked flamers. Deep-strike these guys in, and they can be absolutely brutal. Under fifth, the wounds from each template stack, and then get re-rolled, so if you deep-struck them right, you can position them to get multiple wounds per model on average sized squads, and against horde, all those re-rolled wounds will usually be unsavable.

But enough bragging about heatwaves. My question is, what should I fill the third hardpoint with? I've been filling it with drone controllers and a drone per suit, so two suits and two drones. So far, the heatwaves have been incredible, but the drones have been useless. The reason was for pinning, but that never really worked, and since I only had one pathfinder team there was no reason to waste a turn markerlighting a unit primarily using templates. So I'm looking for something else to fill the third hardpoint. I've heard of people using shield generators, to guard against instant death, and blacksun filters, just to keep them as cheap as possible. What do you guys think?

BTW, don't suggest fusion blasters, because crisis suits can only do one thing at a time, and trying to make them fill multiple rolls is just a waste of bitz and points.

Missile Pod. I think radiohazard suggested it. If you're not in template range, you SHOULD be in Missile Pod range.

I'd agree with the missile pod. It gives you the extra vehicle killing power that flamers cant take care of. It also gives the squad versatility.

rogueeyes wrote:I'd agree with the missile pod. It gives you the extra vehicle killing power that flamers cant take care of. It also gives the squad versatility.

I'm not looking for versatillity, however, I have deathrains to kill vehicles. I don't think that it is good to create "versatile" crisis suits, because then you blow a lot of points for a team of suits that are only going to be able to do one of their jobs effectively, maybe neither if you try to do both. Plus, the far away anti-transport role that the missle pod is used for is too contradictory to the way the flamers have to be used.

I was thinking more along the lines of support systems rather than secondary weapons systems. Any suggestions for those?

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:
BTW, don't suggest fusion blasters, because crisis suits can only do one thing at a time, and trying to make them fill multiple rolls is just a waste of bitz and points.

Sounds like you already got it figured out then....?

Why have 3 weapons when they will just go on a flamer rampage?

Cyclic Ion Blaster on models that can take it, Burst Cannon for those who can't.
For those times when you DS weird and are out of flamer range. Only 8 points (15 for CIB)

The problem with the CIB is that you can only take one in the army and it has to be on a Shas'vre or a commander. The upgrade is not worth it if you are suicide striking them.

On my deathrains I add a flamer just in case the enemy gets in close to me. You can only fire 1 weapon (or 1 twinlinked weapon) a turn unless you have a multitracker. You might be better off going with a defensive measure such as a shield generator (although it is very expensive) in order to give them a longer life up close and personal.

Take fusion because at the end of the day youll face more mechanized lists than not. With fusion you can deepstrike and take out tank squadrons etc..

2 suits w/ Fusion and Flamers is 90 points you will get your points back on that think of it as a Termicide "light."

I wouldn't put shield generators as they increase the cost significantly.

TL Flamer + Blacksun filter should be fine, cost of every suit will be 34 for a very efficient horde killer

There is no point in trying to set them up for horde/tank killer role as it will be only a waste of points so MP/FB are a big NO.

Missile pods and twin flamers on that kinda suit are pretty good. I advocate this.

Burst cannons and a twin-linked flamer. Give the team leader a hard-wired multi-traker (to fire both weapons). Job done, no duality in purpose.

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:

I'm not looking for versatillity, however, I have deathrains to kill vehicles. I don't think that it is good to create "versatile" crisis suits,

I think you should play more 5th edition and learn what works before you make a bunch of crisis suits that are terrible in 5th.

Ok well, here are your situations:
A: You either DS in on target at a forward enemy unit, land well, and do massive damage...

B: Or, you will DS on target at a rear unit, do massive damage...

C: DS off target front, minimal damage

D: DS off target back, minimal damage

In almost every scenario, but more specifically when hitting a forward unit, you tend to be in a nasty position, and get moidalized during their next turn. If you hit the rear troops, the same thing can occur, but there is one major difference, when behind him, that forces him to turn around and deal with a small cheap unit, or risk greater damage.

This is important, as that horde killing-ness you would see particularly effective against orks and nids, yet orks are faster so have a greater reprisal in the immediate future than nids are usually capable of.

So this is an interesting predicament, because the enemy knows its just 2 guys, who have rediculous close range destruction, but what else? If they are equipped with BSFilters, they will be regarded as a minor problem to to serious lack of range and/or toughness... 2 ork missles/some quick shooting, and they are gone.

Now if you up the anti and go the expensive route, either shield generators or shield drones, then they are regarded almost the same way, but just minorly more anoying... an unsaved rocket will still kill em outright.

So how do we further threaten the enemy, so he will glance away from your main, even for a second, and hand you the advantage? Fusion is an idea, but as fusion has the same problem as the flamers, how often will you not only hit with that single fusion shot, but also be in range of that precious rear armor to use it? Which burst is pointless as you are already designed for anti horde, dont need target locks, multitrackers( atleast at the moment), or target arrays, plasma is too expensive, as are the Special systems for such a sacrifice-able unit...

This leaves only one option to be the most effective, and that is missle. Missle pods arent too expensive, they give you multiple shots so your likely to hit, relatively high strength and long range so rear armor is severly threatend which means that after they are done roastin smores, they are potentially still very dangerous...

So i suggest you give them missles, as it makes them far more threatening and intimidating which is the point in battle, make your enemy fear you and he wont seek a fight.

I have found that this config of suit is PARTICULARLY useful for one of tau's biggest problems: Objective grabbing, you simply time them to come in with a decent kroot unit, roast the enemy unit on the obj, kroot mop up and take the obj, leaves two potentially hazardous units behind the enemy, on his now vacant objective, very hard hitting shooting and CC and incredibly hard to deal with in cover... works like a charm!

Updated for gramar...

If you are going to Deepstrike know that you will be on a suicide mission. Either have the ability to completely take out a unit or some way to help defend against what will happen in the next turn.

Twin Burst Cannon With TA - 3 S5AP5 shots per model @BS4 = 1.5 Hits per model

Twin Flamers With Target Lock - Template S4 AP5 per model with ReRoll to wound.

You'll be hitting more than 1.5 models with flamers and you will be able to target 2-3 different squads depending on how many suits you take. This is probably the best choice. They are going to be dead in a turn anyways so you might as well try to take out as many squads as you possibly can in one shot.

Timmah wrote:

Yorick_of_Tau wrote:

I'm not looking for versatillity, however, I have deathrains to kill vehicles. I don't think that it is good to create "versatile" crisis suits,

I think you should play more 5th edition and learn what works before you make a bunch of crisis suits that are terrible in 5th.

I agree with Tim, Flamer suits are not good in an increasingly mech enviornment.

gameandwatch-

thank you for the advice, now that you put it that way, the missle pods do seem better choices. I will look into those. And I usually use them in concert with kroot anyway. I move the kroot in on the target unit, DS the suits, cook the target, and then assault them with my kroot so they can't retaliate against the suits.

kadun-

kadun wrote:

I agree with Tim, Flamer suits are not good in an increasingly mech enviornment.

This is true. That said, somebody has to kill the guys that will inevitably survive the destruction of their transports. Also, I employ my heatwaves mainly to counter horde, since my list doesn't have enough anti-infantry firepower without them. And of course, they can clean off virtually any objective in a turn, even if it is held by a troop transport, since I usually have enough deathrain to crack open a rhino quick and easy. You see, this is how to play Tau, IMHO. Each unit works in concert with the rest of the army to achieve their objectives throught the game. Outflank kroot all you want, but they'll get shredded if there's no suppressing fire, and if your deathrains, hammerhead, ect. crack a transport, what's to stop that unit getting into cover or out of LOS during their turn? That's how Tau are made to work, and is the only way they will win if you are playing anyone with a well designed, adaptable list and some experience with 40K.

To clear out horde you should still have 2 hammerheads shooting templates.

Also, don't underestimate fireknife suits. With pathfinders providing 1-2 markerlights you should be able to kill 5-8 non meq troops a turn while sitting at a safe 30" range.

Not to mention Kroot, which should help out a lot with horde armies.

Also, don't underestimate fireknife suits.

It's hard to underestimate the least efficient popular build in use.

Canonness Rory wrote:

Also, don't underestimate fireknife suits.

It's hard to underestimate the least efficient popular build in use.

How are they the least efficient again?

I've only fooled around with tau, but I'd rather have the option of having Missile pods to deal with transports all game, than count on deep striking flamers. MP/F/f is still pretty cheap, and can be effective in every game, not just against hordes.

Your burst cannon numbers are wrong.

twin- linked at bs 4 is 2.666666etc hits


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your burst cannon numbers are wrong.

twin- linked at bs 4 is 2.666666etc hits

Timmah wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:

Also, don't underestimate fireknife suits.

It's hard to underestimate the least efficient popular build in use.

How are they the least efficient again?

I think Cannonness Rory meant that they are not as good for the points. How much do they cost again? 57 pts each? That's 171 pts for for three generic fireknives, that will only hit 50% of the time, have crappy leadership, and can be instant deathed. Plus, you'll probably have to pay for a team leader with a bonding knife, who's not guaranteed to survive longest anyway. With JSJ their range is respectable, 30", but they only get three shots each unless within 18" before jumping. Plus, with 5th edition's cover improvements, the plasma rifle just isn't an instakill any more. That sounds pretty inefficient to me, at least for the 181 points (181 being bonded, obviously).

62 points a piece. Most of your arguments are valid against all Crisis Suits and thus invalid against Fireknifes in particular.
Use them in tandem with Pathfinders to boost BS and lower cover saves, believe me they are golden. Units like Termies and Nobz (No Armour, cover or FNP, yes please!) and even normal marines and transports will start to cry when you put 6-9 of these guys on the table. Just give them your markerlights.

As for Heatwave Crisis suits, the answers have been given. Black-sun for cheapness, Missile pods in case you face a no-horde list or Drones for survivability.

EDIT:
I don't really like them though. They fill a role in your army which can be filled by lots of other things in the codex. If you're playing Tau and your lacking anti-infantry your doing something wrong.

62 points a piece. Most of your arguments are valid against all Crisis Suits and thus invalid against Fireknifes in particular.

Except all the other suits are cheaper, and much more efficient at their chosen job.
Fireknives do not have a chosen job, they just have 2 high strength weapons, so they're ok against most things, but are good at nothing, except maybe shooting at 4+ save infantry out of cover.

Deathrains rock anti-transport, they're like super-mobile lootas.
Heatwaves rock anti-horde.
Plasma/Fusion rocks both anti-termie AND anti-vehicle.

Who names these things?

Tau Players.

Well... Tau players should just say "TL-Flamer+ Burstcannon" suits.

I'm not a Tau player, but I know their armory and capabilities, and have played against Tau enough times to have a valid voice in a Tau-centric tactics discussion... but I've got no clue what all these "watergun" and "spitball" suit builds are.

A quick guide on popular builds:

Helios = Fusion/Plasma/MT
For anti-terminator, anti-vehicle, anti-MEQ.

Firestorm = Burst/Missile/MT
For anti-tyranid and anti-ork. Assumes you are running across open plains and thus, don't get cover.

Deathrain = TL Missile/TA
Anti-transport, anti-MC

Fireknife = Plasma/Missile/MT
Anti-transport, anti-troop, anti-MC

Heatwaves = TL Flamer/BSF
Anti-horde

Microwave= TL Fusion
Anti-vehicle, anti MC

Don't have my book, but what about a failsafe detonators? That way if you do get assaulted you go out in a fiery blaze and may take some more enemy models with you.