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Hi

I'm thinking of building a semi-horde army of slightly better than average units. I'm talking about a core of 5-6 units of 30 'superior' troops + redirection units in 2250. Superior, in this context, means:

1) either S or T 4
2) one or two other rules/stats that make them better than other basic units
3) 7-9 Points per model - anything more becomes too restrictive.

Examples include Ork 2choppa boyz, crypt ghouls, dwarf greatweapon infantry (arguably).

My thinking is this:

Vs elite/anvil army - play as a horde. Go for flanks with your outflankers and 2on1 your opponent
vs horde - play like a *large* elite army - the fact that you are superior to them means that you'll still have to get flanked to get defeated reliably. Ghouls provide a real advantage here with fear.
vs Cavalry - use your outflankers in a 'chequerboard' defense to get countercharges - much the same as a horde does.
vs gunline - use a combination of numbers and screening to get to them.

It seems to take the best of the 'middle of the road' army and make a bit better, but before I go out and buy 200 ghouls/boyz i'd like to hear your opinions....


Cheers

Gaz-A-Tron

I've only been playing fantasy for about 6 months but what you ask is impossible imo.

Ork boyz suffer anamosity so no tatics are reliable (when you need them to move they wont and when you don't want them to they can)

Ghouls are nasty but you need strong Lords for a Vampire list to work, then again all you have to do in snipe out the lord and the army falls apart.

Dwarves are too slow to march accross the table, so they will always get charged and then they strike last the following rounds, not good.

i agree with dwarves, hence why they were marginal.

Sure orcs have animosity, but they are by far the hardest unit in the 'superior' unit category, and this can be mitigated by several tactics ('ere we go i think it is) and waaaghs.

The lord thing is the ostensible weakness of the vampire army, but only 1 army can really reliably snipe lords against a magic-defence heavy vampire army, and that is the empire gunline. I've played a bunch of games and a couple of tournaments with my vampires, and my lord had only died once, on turn 5....

Convince me.

Ghouls work great. One of their biggest advantages is that you don't need to take 30 of them. Just start with 10-15 and take summon ghouls on your lord and maybe another vamp. I usually take 12 in ranks of 6. By the time you get across the table you should have a lot more than 30 ghouls in each unit unless you're fighting a really shooty unit. In that case you wouldn't have made it across the board with full units in the first place.

As for sniping the lord, you almost have to let it happen. It's a lot more difficult than it seems if you play your army right. If my lord dies then it's either due to a miscast or the rest of my army has been wiped out, anyway.

I ran a 100 warriors list a while back. Man that was fun, I only lost 6-10 on the way up the board and then they obliterated whatever they hit.

Savage Orc-spam can be effective at times: You're getting 3 S4 attacks at 9pts a model, and against anything S4 or better you have a superior save against incoming attacks (albeit the save still isn't much). Immunity to Psychology also partially negates the issue of Orc Leadership.

Problems being that this is - outside some good converting - a really expensive army in terms of cash and that with the +D6 happening 1-in-6 turns, your units could be forced ahead into charges you really don't want. On the plus side, you do get to pre-measure technically for all your charges.

Savage Orcs have the potential to be a good army list, all things considered (T4, 6+ save against anything, only 9pts for 3 attacks each, can be upgraded to make a unit potentially shell out 4 S5 attacks one turn a game, and 3 regular otherwise - both at WS4!). Just enjoy losing your next few paychecks / weekends off.

I retract my original statement against Crypt Goul's (they VC player i play against just sucks.) However putting 200 of them on the table won't get you many repeat opponents imo.

I still don't like Savage Orks - they have potential but their just to inconsistant for me.

Did I miss something? Savage Orks are still frenzied, right? Why are they seriously being considered, en-masse?

In my experience (khornate marauders w/ flails, a superior unit if upgraded with light armour & shield, and 8pts a pop if i remember correctly), frenzy can be very hard to deal with when you're outnumbered...the whole 'bait and flee' thing requires your to have units 'spare' with which to bait....

I'm thinking something like:

30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
Casty Vampire - extra magic level
Casty Vampire - extra magic level
Casty Vampire - extra magic level
Fighty Vampire Lord - mounted w/ auto-hit lance & extra magic level

In 2250 Points...perhaps?

Cheers


Gaz-A-Tron

Gaz-A-Tron wrote:
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
30 Ghouls
Casty Vampire - extra magic level
Casty Vampire - extra magic level
Casty Vampire - extra magic level
Fighty Vampire Lord - mounted w/ auto-hit lance & extra magic level

In 2250 Points...perhaps?

At 2250 points? The extra magic levels make me think you're looking for some magical capabilities too.

30 boyz w/ command (since Orc Boss' are worth their 15pt cost to me, due to the +1 WS, S, & A increases) are 240pts with additional hand weapons. Six of them can be taken for 1440pts. For magic, you can either go the "cheap" route and take Night Goblin Shamans (lower durability compared to Orcs, but three of 'em is 45pts saved), or go with Orc Shamans for the extra toughness point and easier-to-cast spells.

Lord could be Skarsnik or Azhag if you want a combat-lord who can do some magic (Skarsnik & his Prodda, Azhag and his Level 2 lore of Shadows). You could take a straight-up combat Orc Lord for a pretty good cost (heck, a Goblin Warboss could suffice with Shaga's Screamin' Sword, Amulet, and Tricksy [GW website does state a bit where Tricksy does not deny you from taking the ward save of a wounding model] to get a potential 8 S8 attacks at WS5 that allow no Wards), and for magic you again have the cheaper Goblin Great Shaman or the T5 (!) Orc Shaman.

Leftover points could be used buying Squigs (30pts a team, but only 24 are for the Squig, and at 8pts each you're getting what amounts to a Big 'Un with an additional hand weapon that is immune to psychology), or you could even drop some of the Orc Boyz for more Squig Teams.

Big problem with this list is every model in the army can suffer from animosity. But then, if you want to drop Animosity you should just play a 12 Chariot Orc & Goblin army (4 Pump Wagons, 4 Special Choice Chariots, 4 Character Chariots seeing as the same source for the Tricksy Trinket bit said Character Chariots are not a Special Choice). Hell, this is only about 1,000 of the points you have so you could technically make this with the Orc-spam army. Four wizards on Chariots, a couple units of 30 Orc Boyz, and then as many chariots as you can cram in for causing the combat resolution wounds. Army is slimmed down to under a half-dozen animosity units.

Nothing but ghouls on the table? That could work I suppose. I'd probably make the little vamps more fighty and make the lord casty. Give one of the vamps ghoulkin. Also, try to fit in at least one corpse cart. Two would be better.

I'm not so sure about starting every unit out as 30 strong. You have a lot of casting dice with which you can increase their numbers in the first turns. I'd also take a bunker unit for your Vampires to hide in.

An all Ghoul army could certainly work though. Just don't expect to win big a lot. The all anvil army wins by killing the weaker units, while tarpitting the stronger units, so you won't score a lot of VP's. Then again, your opponent won't either (unless your bunker is unprotected!).

I play against a guy who runs a very similar VC list. He starts out with 5 units of 10 ghouls, and 3 of them have a vampire attached. He uses 2 corpse carts and then fills the rest of the points with various specials/rares. I play lizards, and he'll just sit on his board edge and raise ghouls so by the time I make it over there each of his units has about 30 ghouls. My Saurus can mow them down like it's their job, but he was bringing back a good 8-12 per turn. Game ended up being a stalemate until my stegadon smashed his general... in turn 5.

You really don't need to start with the units that big at the beginning of the game. Use the extra points for corpse carts so you'll always strike first.

The Orc Boyz work quite well as long as you are good at getting the charge off/ have a bit of luck with your Waagh!/ Animosity rolls. Just leave enough points to buy a small unit of Night Goblins with nets and you have a good chance of winning most combats.