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For SM Sarge?

Powersword gets you extra attack with pistol, single LC gives you a reroll on your to wound roll..

Anyone used both options and developed a preference?

well as SM sarges can't take lightning claws, i'd say powerswords.

and really, lightning claws are better vs targets of toughness 4 or better.. power swords are better against eldar or guard.

Power fist, if anything.

Powersword. At only two attacks, you're better off going with a powerfist than with a single lightning claw so if you don't want to spend the extra points (or just don't have them), then stick with a power sword.

Number Crunching Time!

Vs. T4 WS4

PS Charging: 2 hits, 1 wound.
LC Charging: 1.5 hits, 4.5/4 (about 1.12) wounds.

PS Standing: 1.5 hits, .75 wounds.
LC Standing: 1 hit, .75 wounds.

Vs. T3 WS3

PS Charging: 2.666 hits, 1.78 wounds.
LC Charging: 2 hits, 1.66 wounds.

PS Standing: 2 hits, 1.33 wounds
LC Standing: 1.33 hits, 1.1 wounds

Vs. T5 WS4

PS Charging: 2 hits, .66 wounds
LC Charging: 1.5 hits, .82 wounds

PS Standing: 1.5 hits, .5 wounds
LC Standing: 1 hit, .55 wounds

Vs. T3 WS4

PS Charging: 2 hits, 1.33 wounds
LC Charging: 1.5 hits, 1.12 wounds

PS Standing: 1.5 hits, 1 wound
LC Standing: 1 hit, .87 wounds

Basically the difference is almost infinitesimal. The Lightning Claw, statistically, has a very slight edge vs. T4 or higher and the Power Sword has the equally insignificant advantage over T3. It would depend on your meta, but since nothing's really scary in CC at T3 except for Wyches and Aspect Warriors, I'd go with the Lightning Claw. The only time a Power Sword gets seen really (beyond the odd Captain choice) is on a Command Company Champion (the free bump to WS 5 makes a big difference and the combat shield is a freebie anyway).

Of course, for 10 more points you could get a powerfist, which is considered a much more effective option in a full tactical squad. However, if this is for a Vanguard squad or something similar, this analysis might help. Or more accurately, this analysis might demonstrate that you can use what you have with little deviation in performance.

lighting claw vs MEQ:2base*50%hit*75%wound = .75 dead
power sword vs MEQ:3base*50%hit*50%wound= .75 dead

on the charge:
lighting claw vs MEQ:3base*50%hit*75%wound = 1.125 dead
power sword vs MEQ:4base*50%hit*50%wound= 1 dead

and the claw only gets better against higher toughness enemies... the sword is better against targets below T4...

edit: damn ninjas!

Actually, in this case it's rather easy to determine which weapon has the advantage.

Space Marine Sergeant

with LC vs WS5/T5, no charge: 0.56 wounds
with PW vs WS5/T5, no charge: 0.50 wounds
--> LC is 12% better than PW.

with LC vs. WS4/T4, no charge: 0.75 wounds
with PW vs. WS4/T4, no charge: 0.75 wounds
--> Weapons are equal.

with LC vs WS3/T3, no charge: 1.19 wounds
with PW vs. WS3/T3, no charge: 1.33 wounds
--> PW is 11.8% better than LC.

+ + +

with LC vs WS5/T5, on the charge: 0.83 wounds
with PW vs WS5/T5, on the charge: 0.67 wounds
--> LC is 23.9% better than PW.

with LC vs WS4/T4, on the charge: 1.125 wounds
with PW vs WS4/T4, on the charge: 1 wound
--> LC is 12.5% better than PW.

with LC vs WS3/T3, on the charge: 2.07 wounds
with PW vs WS3/T3, on the charge: 1.77 wounds
--> LC is 16.9% better than PW.


-------------------- Doing the same mathhamer with a Captain for comparison.

Space Marine Captain

with LC vs WS5/T5, no charge: 1.11 wounds
with PW vs WS5/T5, no charge: 0.89 wounds
--> LC is 24.7% better than PW.

with LC vs. WS4/T4, no charge: 1.5 wounds
with PW vs. WS4/T4, no charge: 1.33 wounds
--> LC is 12.8% better than PW.

with LC vs WS3/T3, no charge: 1.77 wounds
with PW vs. WS3/T3, no charge: 1.77 wounds
--> Weapons are equal.

+ + +

with LC vs. WS5/T5, on the charge: 1.48 wounds
with PW vs. WS5/T5, on the charge: 1.11 wounds
--> LC is 33% better than PW.

with LC vs WS4/T4, on the charge: 2 wounds
with PW vs WS4/T4, on the charge: 1.66 wounds
--> LC is 20.5% better than PW.

with LC vs WS3/T3 on the charge: 2.37 wounds
with PW vs WS3/T3 on the charge: 2.22 wounds
--> LC is 6.8% better than PW.

With higher combat skills and more attacks, the advantage lies definitely with the Lightning Claw.


Final result:

The Lighting Claw is better than the power sword in 4/6 Sgt.-Tests and 10/12 tests overall.
Both weapons are equal in 1/6 Sgt.-Tests and 2/12 tests overall.
The power sword is better than the Lightning Claw in 1/6 Sgt.-Tests and 1/12 tests overall.

In general, the Lightning Claw is better than the power sword, especially with increasing WS and number of attacks of the wielder.
The only situation where a power sword would be the better choice is if you try to play defensively against charging guardsmen or fire warriors. And how often is that gonna happen!

I hope my mathhammer is correct. I re-calculated some parts several times to be sure, but if someone finds a mistake, please point it out so this thread will become more helpful!

Postscriptum: Ninja'd! And now you tell me that sergeants can't take a lightning claw...

Why not a powerfist? Int 1 but str 8 imagine the possibility's.

A power fist would only be inferior to a lightning claw against T3 enemies, wound-wise, that's right. It could hurt vehicles. It is a very nice weapon, no problem with that. What's hard to calculate is the impact of the I1 that could become a problem. On sergeants it is less of a problem than on ICs, because they can't be singled out in combat. The powerfist should be a very viable choice for sergeants.

Awesome work

Apologies for including Sarge in thread if they cannot take, the mathammer work I was looking for came out.

Appreciated all

If you're keeping your boltgun (or taking a combi-bolter) then you might as well take the lightning claw for the same cost since you won't get the extra attack.

Tactical Sergents can't take a lightning claw, but it's still a useful analysis for assault marines, Vanguard, command squad veterans and Sternguard. It also says that the free Power Sword in the Vanguard unit should almost always be replaced by the free LC. Not only is the Power Sword only better against T3, but the most of the actual assault units in the T3 bracket either have crappy armor saves (Hormogaunts) or an invul (Wyches, Nurglings, Harlequins), making the Power Sword little more than a really expensive CC weapon.

Of course, with the Sternguard the choice is kind of a no-brainer. You don't get an extra attack with the PS without giving up the bolter. There is no excuse for keeping the bolt pistol over the bolter in a Sternguard unit.

Renewing this thread as I think it is worth keeping current for new readers

Sorry to necro a thread, but I felt that was better than making a 3rd on the same subject...

I am extremely new to 40k so forgive me if this is a dumb question.

How would this (LC vs PW) relate to a Blood Angels Vanguard Vet squad?

I would guess LC would be a better choice, as a Vang Vet Squad probably should be taking on some of the tougher units on the other end of the table?