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This is a simple question that came up in another thread. Rather then completely derailing that thread, I've started this one.

When shooting Vehicles use LOS down the gun barrel which you can turn the gun to face in any possible way to target the enemy. Can any one quote a single line that tells you to ignore the LOS and cover rules allowing you to shoot through members of the same unit?

OWN UNIT
There is one important exception to the rules for line of sight. Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit (just as if they were not there), as in reality they would take up firing positions to maximise their own squads fire power.

page 16 check line of sight & pick target

Own unit:
in the same way they can trace line of sight through members of their own squad, models can always shoot, and be shot at through members of their own unit without conferring or receiving a cover-save.

page 22 cover saves-exceptions

So what use is this for a gamer? Well if those sponsons turn inward you could aim at something in front of your tank with both sides, even if it passes through the front of your tank. Fluff on // this could represent the vehicle weaving so each side could fire off some shots //fluff off. Hell even works for drop pods which can't open all the doors.

Reason? you can shoot through models in the same unit as if they were not there. The model firing is most certainly part of the unit so can shoot through its self.

Any way if any one can come up with rules against this i would be grateful.

From what I understand you are asking if a sponson can fire through the tank carrying the weapon.

From memory vehicles have there own rules governing weapons. Turrets have 360degrees of fire and a 45 degree inclination. Pintle mounted weapons have a similar arc etc...
There are no rules that would allow a tank to fire through itself or deny a cover save if one was possible.

I have a feeling your question isn't that simple though : /

Two of the pieces of argument which do not support a vehicle's weapon being able to draw line of sight through itself:

1. The diagrams in the rulebook which accompany the rules for vehicle weapons and line of sight on page 59 show line of sight being limited by parts of the vehicle.

2. The FAQ answers on weapon mount classification which contains the statement "In the same way, the shuriken catapult mounted under the hull of a Wave Serpent, Falcon, etc. looks like it can rotate 360º, but it does not look like it can be fired through the main hull right behind it..."

The GW Faq says that you cannot shoot though yourself.

Bear in mind it is the FAQ, but I thought I would mention it.

RaW I cannot see anything prohibiting it nor allowing it. As the rules are Restrictive (as in, they must say you CAN do something, they do not have to say you cannot do something)/ It really gets iffy because the "own unit" rule is supposed to apply to infantry, not vehicles (as vehicles have their own shooting rules).

Yep it is indeed in the games workshop FAQ i forgot that, rereading it is a joy like most game workshop text. Line I like the most is when it tell you what to do with a blind spot "so we normally play" ... not you can't but we do this because it make sense.

RaW (or my reading) is the guns can move as they are able. Vehicles use LOS and Cover rules the same as every one else. So if it can be pointed towards X then they can shoot X.

And as for those picture, they can they are not explicit and look at them. They don't all follow the same rules. The predator has a gap where the lasCannon cannot fire ... does the Russ? No it can shoot up to the edge of the tank. Also correct me if i'm wrong but the centre point on the predators gun us off centre; its been move to make the image look nicer (not that the fool managed to get the arrows to line up).

When vehicles come in squadrons IIRC they use the same rules for LOS that infantry do (namely that members of their own unit do not block their LOS).

Since every vehicle is necessarily a member of its own unit it would follow that they cannot block LOS from themselves. The only LOS restriction is if the mounting of the weapons is specified in the unit entry. If not, it defaults to "if the weapon 'looks' like it could point at the target" and with some snazzy modeling you could easily have a right sponson point at a target (through the vehicle) on the left.

Sounds like it's some hardcore cheese, but I think the rules could support that viewpoint.

DoW

Page 58 and 59 show how line of sight can be determined from a couple of different weapon mountings. None of them show the ability to draw a LOF through the vehicle and the one on pg. 58 specifically shows that a weapon that could have LOF if able to draw through the vehicle does not and says that it "cannot draw a line of sight."

So clearly, for vehicles, the ability to ignore models in your unit does not apply to the vehicle itself that is drawing the LOFs. (and extrapolating, perhaps also applies in reverse to an individual model in a unit not being able to ignore itself, though I'm not sure when that'd ever matter)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:RaW (or my reading) is the guns can move as they are able. Vehicles use LOS and Cover rules the same as every one else. So if it can be pointed towards X then they can shoot X.

Well...yeah, I suppose if you went out of your way to model a given vehicle to allow all of its guns a 360 rotation and also split up the body so that they could all draw clear LOFs through the middle of the vehicle. RAW I couldn't find fault with that.