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I don't want to derail the thread I started about Logan, nor do I want to start multiple threads about each of these singular questions. I'd also like anyone who thinks something is unclear in the SW codex to put them up here as well.

(Copied from the other thread)
I have 4 Rune Priests in my army. All are within 24" of an enemy psyker when he attempts then succeeds a psychic test to use a power. How many dice do I roll to negate that power on a 4+? 4 or 1?

The Rune Priest, Runic Weapon reads (cutting to the relevant part): Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified.

I've been arguing that I roll as many dice to nullify as bearers of runic weapons are in range. The large gaming club (that only really dabbles in 40k) in the area is arguing that you will only get to roll once against each power.

Another one I've been wondering: when a model has the option to take Fenrisian wolves as equipment can that model no longer be carried in a transport? The wolves are beasts and cannot embark onto transports. If a model with Fenrisian Wolves as equipment can embark on a transport do the wolves take up space?

Each Rune Priest has that rule, each Rune Priest in range gets a chance to negate it. You Roll 4.

Wolves have a special rule saying they may ride in transports but take up 2 slots each now.

Gwar! wrote:Wolves have a special rule saying they may ride in transports but take up 2 slots each now.

Not doubting you, but where is that?

Typeline wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Wolves have a special rule saying they may ride in transports but take up 2 slots each now.

Not doubting you, but where is that?

Page 31, Fenrisan Wolves, Loyal Companions Special Rule.

never question someone who has the book IN HAND hehehehe especially someone who is very strict with rules LOL I too have seen the book and read parts of it

Typeline wrote:
The Rune Priest, Runic Weapon reads (cutting to the relevant part): Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified.

@Typeline
Is this the exact quote?

@Gwar
Unfortunately your logic doesn't hold true in all cases. The IG Astropath is a perfect example. It was FAQ'd that even if I take 2x Astropaths I still only ever get +1. The modifiers aren't cumulative.
Astro quote: While the [Astro] is alive, you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls.

The converse argument is that they all trigger at the same time and "a dice" is rolled.
To elaborate
4 Priests are joined to a squad and within 20" of a model that passed psychic test.
Check to see if they are equipped with a runic weapon - True
You roll the first dice - True
Did you roll a dice - True
Statement is finished.

In the instance of stacking etc. like Autarch reserve rules, they often explicitly state they stack. When you look at the logic for the IG Astropaths:
I have 2x AstroPaths
Is the AstroPath alive - True
Add 1 to my reserve roll - True

To me, the rune weapon rule doesn't say you roll a dice for each bearer, just that you roll "a" dice.

On an even simpler level, it's like any other save to me. Even if I had a 4+ Cover, a 4+ Armor and a 4+ Invulnerable I can only take one save.

On a fluff level... I don't ever recall Space Wolves being psychic "power houses", at least, in what I've read.

But in order to have a complete parallel with the Astropath and Autarch rules don't we now need to argue about whether the omission of the typical "Only one psychic hood may be used per power" wording was deliberate or an error on the part of the writer?

paidinfull wrote:@Gwar
Unfortunately your logic doesn't hold true in all cases. The IG Astropath is a perfect example. It was FAQ'd that even if I take 2x Astropaths I still only ever get +1. The modifiers aren't cumulative.
Astro quote: While the [Astro] is alive, you add 1 to any of your reserve rolls.

Yeah, the Astropath also has a completely different effect that is not comparable.

What is your point?

I agree that's a valid statement.
In my eyes it's not necessary to state that "One [weapon] can be used for one test" but it certainly would have been more clear.

This isn't a shot at anyone, as I sure as heck did it and do it too(the astropath is me thinking it was +2 for the longest time), but I feel this is an instance as gamers we are looking for what we want to see.

I think both sides have a valid stance, but we definitely also have to consider:
This would be the first instance of multiple identical tests against a single save.

That in conjunction with the Wolves not being incredible psykers, I think I would be more inclined to agree if it were Eldar or 1k Sons, and the model only costing "a buck" and it's a marine character... I don't see it being the new "ultimate" psyker defense.

It's really only a LD10 Hood against LD 10 Psychic tests, but a LD9 vs LD9 tests. It's actually a little worse than a regular hood for that reason.

@OP
The one thing I will say, however, is: If your gaming group agreed to play it a certain way, then I suggest you play it that way even if you disagree for the sake of democracy.

This is actually a tenant in the BGB that many, myself included, tend to forget intended to remind us that this is a game played for fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:What is your point?

If he rolled a dice for a passed psychic test for being within 24" of the bearer of a runic weapon he has met the criteria of the rule.
If he rolls multiple dice for a passed psychic test he has not.

paidinfull wrote:
@Typeline
Is this the exact quote?

Yes. The rest of the runic weapons stuff is left out though. It's not relevant to the ability here. If you want the rest I can type it up though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

paidinfull wrote:
@OP
The one thing I will say, however, is: If your gaming group agreed to play it a certain way, then I suggest you play it that way even if you disagree for the sake of democracy.

This is actually a tenant in the BGB that many, myself included, tend to forget intended to remind us that this is a game played for fun.

I don't play with the mentioned gaming club. None of the people I play with do. They play a lot of flames of war, once a month in a huge group at my FLGS. They are an okay bunch. But their focus isn't on the game I play. Which is why I don't want them trying to decide how the rest of us should interpret the rules. It has a tendency to work like that around here though. One person starts saying something, it quickly spreads without question.

But I'd be fine with it working either way. It's hard to get two worth while Rune Priests on the field anyway. And the people I normally play with run super hard lists like I try to do and we usually let a couple different interpretations of the rules run around too. Until league time of course, then we have to fix it.

My apologies.
I misunderstood that the gents you referred to were not 40k-ers. I agree that someone that is not actively a part of your group should probably keep their opinions to themselves.

In the event that you and your group come to the conlcusion "a roll of 6 to wound is instant death" then that is up to you and your group.
Part of the fun of it being a "game"

For the purposes of "I play by the RAW and that's how we should do it" the biggest issue I see with taking 4x nullify tests against 1x psychic test is that by simply rolling more than 1x die you are breaking the rune weapon rules of the other Rune priests. That's part of what I was trying to allude to with the IG example. So by gaining the benefit of 2x Astros instead of "adding 1" you would in fact be adding 2.

My personal conclusion is 1x die is rolled even if there are 4x Rune priests within 24".

Over all... the basic rune priest is still great for his price and as a whole the book is still excellent.

I'm especially jealous that Grey hunters are probably one of the best troops in the game now, but for the points of a marine I still never understood why Ultramarines didn't have Bolter, Pistol, CCW when they have it in the fluff and points...

@ paidinfull

By strict RAW, you don't violate any rule by rolling more than one dice. I think you're intending to argue this, but I'm not seeing it in what you've written yet.

Just because one rule gets applied once doesn't mean the cycle of applying that rule ends.

You cite some examples of clarifications where things don't stack. I can cite examples of clarifications--for example the DH mystics free shot or DH psychic hoods--where rules do get sequentially applied in succession to the same attempt to deep strike or use a power respectively.

The issue I see presented specifically with the Daemon Hunters Hood is that it is from a 3rd edition codex and of course we are well into 5th edition now. In addition it also has the wording "Declare that you'll use", which implies it's use is optional. So why is that an issue?

The rune weapon nullification test isn't.

Furthermore, whenever an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer, roll a dice - on the roll of a 4+ that power is nullified.

Please note, that there is no "you may roll a {dice}" or "you may choose to roll a die"

If it works as you say it does then chronology plays a role in this rule set and in 40k everything in each phase is presumed to happen at the same time.

I pass a psychic test. 4 dice are picked up and rolled to nullify it.
In your logic the rule would force you to roll all 4 of the dice.
So what happens in this example for these die results?
The First is a 5
the Second is a 4
the Third is a 6
the Fourth is a 2

You have 3 nullified results and 1 successful. I think in your opinion that because there is at least one nullified result that the entire system is now considered a nullified result, but it's not. They are all separate tests. Either the test is successful, or it is not. It can't be 75% failed.

There really isn't a "stack" like in MTG where the "trigger" for the nullifying test goes, and there isn't a time line for how the events of this system work. I imagine a lot of players think that, "well if the first one fails, I can roll the second one, and if that is successful than I do not need to roll the other two dice." However in the rule set provided, you would have to roll those other two dice. So what? I'm rolling dice that don't matter... but in fact you are taking a test on an element that doesn't exist anymore. In my example, the spell was nullified by the first and so you could not be taking the test in any subsequent rolls even though you must.

If you are rolling 4 dice at the same time, you are in fact not rolling "a {dice}" according to the rune weapon rules, you're clearly rolling 4.

Yes, but 4 Rune Priests are saying "Roll a Dice". You are not rolling 4 dice, you are rolling a Dice, but it happens simultaneously 4 times

In regards to runic weapons, compare the wording of it to the wording in Codex: Space Marines for psychic hood, or the wording in Codex: Dark Angels. SM being 5th edition, it is the better example even though the relevant passage is identical.

The point is, Psychic Hoods have a specific rule in their codex that says only one hood may be used to attempt to block a power, even if multiple are in range. Runic Weapons do not have that rule. With it's absence, I see runic weapons as enabling a block attempt per number of them in range. You don't have to designate only one to attempt to block like you do with psychic hoods.

Nice little bonus there. I would not be surprised if that is Errata'ed or FAQ'ed away, but that seems fairly clear RAW to allow it currently. Trying to find a way to argue the wording of Runic Weapons to match the behavior of Psychic Hoods is not right. Completely different wargear, so there is no assumption the limitations of one apply to the other.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but 4 Rune Priests are saying "Roll a Dice". You are not rolling 4 dice, you are rolling a Dice, but it happens simultaneously 4 times

That's an interesting take... but I respectfully disagree with it.

@kaaihn
As you pointed out, the DH entry specifically does not have that sentence either, in light of what I described about the sequence of events for taking a psychic test I'm not convinced you can use the DH Hood to have multiple attempts. The reason is you would have to declare it after the psychic test has been passed. At that point where the first test is completed and the power nullified the second test wouldn't work. Continuing with that logic, if the power has succeeded past the first test, it has succeeded. It's gone off/been cast and the power is resolved.

As I pointed out before, contextually the example of the Astropath and the Rune Weapon are almost identical.
By the logic you are providing I can Add 1 for each Astropath, as "I am [Adding 1] simultaneously 2 times"

I honestly don't feel that RAI or RAW permit multiple dice to be rolled for the test when the rule says "a {dice}", singular.

paidinfull wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but 4 Rune Priests are saying "Roll a Dice". You are not rolling 4 dice, you are rolling a Dice, but it happens simultaneously 4 times

That's an interesting take... but I respectfully disagree with it.

Why? Why, when 4 models are telling you to roll a dice, do you only listen to one of them? By rolling only 1 dice you are breaking the rules of 3 models.

I'm not trying to take anything away from your puppies.
I didn't shoot your dog.

I think that's the crux of where you and I are differing.
In part I feel you are taking the rune priest out of context entirely.

I think we can agree that the Rune Priest is a Space Wolf librarian and that his points(identical) and abilities(similar) are based on similar rule sets to those of the C:SM Librarian.

I think we can also agree that the Rune weapon was intended to be the equivalent of a simpler psychic hood. (Dicing off is the same thing as a 4+)

As I said above, if I roll a dice because "an enemy model succeeds on a psychic test within 24" of the bearer" even if I have multiple instances of that rule, that dice that I rolled still effects the other instances.

Was a psychic test within 24" - Check
Did I roll a die - Check

[By the logic you are providing I can Add 1 for each Astropath, as "I am [Adding 1] simultaneously 2 times"]

paidinfull wrote:I think we can agree that the Rune Priest is a Space Wolf librarian and that his points(identical) and abilities(similar) are based on similar rule sets to those of the C:SM Librarian.

No, they are not, in Fluff or in Rules, and never have been.

End.

Gwar! wrote:

paidinfull wrote:I think we can agree that the Rune Priest is a Space Wolf librarian and that his points(identical) and abilities(similar) are based on similar rule sets to those of the C:SM Librarian.

No, they are not, in Fluff or in Rules, and never have been.

End.

Do you just read parts of posts?

paidinfull wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

paidinfull wrote:I think we can agree that the Rune Priest is a Space Wolf librarian and that his points(identical) and abilities(similar) are based on similar rule sets to those of the C:SM Librarian.

No, they are not, in Fluff or in Rules, and never have been.

End.

Do you just read parts of posts?

No, I read them until the poster shows he has no idea what he is talking about, at which point I do not give the rest of the post my attention.

Gwar! wrote:No, I read them until the poster shows he has no idea what he is talking about, at which point I do not give the rest of the post my attention.

I thought we were having a discussion but clearly that's not the case.
My mistake.

paidinfull wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but 4 Rune Priests are saying "Roll a Dice". You are not rolling 4 dice, you are rolling a Dice, but it happens simultaneously 4 times

That's an interesting take... but I respectfully disagree with it.

@kaaihn
As you pointed out, the DH entry specifically does not have that sentence either, in light of what I described about the sequence of events for taking a psychic test I'm not convinced you can use the DH Hood to have multiple attempts. The reason is you would have to declare it after the psychic test has been passed. At that point where the first test is completed and the power nullified the second test wouldn't work. Continuing with that logic, if the power has succeeded past the first test, it has succeeded. It's gone off/been cast and the power is resolved.

As I pointed out before, contextually the example of the Astropath and the Rune Weapon are almost identical.
By the logic you are providing I can Add 1 for each Astropath, as "I am [Adding 1] simultaneously 2 times"

I honestly don't feel that RAI or RAW permit multiple dice to be rolled for the test when the rule says "a {dice}", singular.

I believe the RAI is that you only get one chance to block. There is a solid argument in my view for Runic Weapons to all get an attempt to block though by RAW. I don't play SW, and I would not really be ok with my opponent rolling for every weapon as I don't believe it is RAI.

As I have said before, I typically don't play RAW purists. The amount of silliness, especially around charge vs assault, in the SW codex should stop anyone from really insisting on playing full RAW. We are adults, we can work out amicable compromises around RAI vs RAW. It's part of the design of the game, the social interaction.

paidinfull wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, I read them until the poster shows he has no idea what he is talking about, at which point I do not give the rest of the post my attention.

I thought we were having a discussion but clearly that's not the case.
My mistake.

This is dakka. We don't have discussions. We just yell and call each other names until someone gives up!

dietrich wrote:This is dakka. We don't have discussions. We just yell and call each other names until someone gives up!

I thought that was a discussion, or did I just grow up under a particularly dysfunctional bridge?

paidinfull wrote:
In part I feel you are taking the rune priest out of context entirely.

I think we can agree that the Rune Priest is a Space Wolf librarian and that his points(identical) and abilities(similar) are based on similar rule sets to those of the C:SM Librarian.

Once you reach the point where you are appealing to context and pointing to rules that apply to other units, no matter how similar in your opinion, you have departed from the realm of RAW.

For example:
In my opinion, the SW rule is written differently from librarian rules on purpose, *in order* to give multiple rune priests multiple attempts at canceling a psychic power. This is actually truly my interpretation of the RAI, even though I don't play space wolves.

Now, what makes my claim less correct than yours?

My main claim is that according to the *literal reading* of the rule, multiple attempts do not break any rule, and in fact as Gwar! points out they actually fulfill the rules allowing rune priests 2-4 to make their attempts. The only way you can get at a reading that restricts multiple attempts is by making big assumptions about what the rules writer meant (as opposed to what he wrote) in which case one assumption/opinion is as good as another.

Here's something that may tilt the RAI debate towards the pro multiple attempts at dispelling camp - Wolf Tail Talismans

If a model or the unit he is with is affected by a psychic power then roll a d6, on a 5+ it's nullified. This is an option for all Rune Priests and comes standard on Njal. I think, clearly, this is precedent for multiple dispel attempts (if you can't make multiple attempts, then this item has no use on RP's)

Trashcan wrote:Here's something that may tilt the RAI debate towards the pro multiple attempts at dispelling camp - Wolf Tail Talismans

If a model or the unit he is with is affected by a psychic power then roll a d6, on a 5+ it's nullified. This is an option for all Rune Priests and comes standard on Njal. I think, clearly, this is precedent for multiple dispel attempts (if you can't make multiple attempts, then this item has no use on RP's)

Just to throw a wrench in your argument, it has a use if you take a Rune Priest without taking Njal. Indeed, you can't actually take a Rune Priest with Njal anyway, since he has all the psychic powers and you may not duplicate powers.

Kaaihn wrote:

Trashcan wrote:Here's something that may tilt the RAI debate towards the pro multiple attempts at dispelling camp - Wolf Tail Talismans

If a model or the unit he is with is affected by a psychic power then roll a d6, on a 5+ it's nullified. This is an option for all Rune Priests and comes standard on Njal. I think, clearly, this is precedent for multiple dispel attempts (if you can't make multiple attempts, then this item has no use on RP's)

Just to throw a wrench in your argument, it has a use if you take a Rune Priest without taking Njal. Indeed, you can't actually take a Rune Priest with Njal anyway, since he has all the psychic powers and you may not duplicate powers.

That is a point of contention. Having Powers A,B,C,D,E and F is not the same as having Powers A and B. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one and leave it for an errata

Not that it matters, with Tempest being weaker 50% of the time than I thought, I am gonna instead go for Logan + 5 Multimelta + 1 Meltagun Longfangs + Pod. Relentless Multimeltas 2" away from your rear is fun

Kaaihn wrote:

Trashcan wrote:Here's something that may tilt the RAI debate towards the pro multiple attempts at dispelling camp - Wolf Tail Talismans

If a model or the unit he is with is affected by a psychic power then roll a d6, on a 5+ it's nullified. This is an option for all Rune Priests and comes standard on Njal. I think, clearly, this is precedent for multiple dispel attempts (if you can't make multiple attempts, then this item has no use on RP's)

Just to throw a wrench in your argument, it has a use if you take a Rune Priest without taking Njal. Indeed, you can't actually take a Rune Priest with Njal anyway, since he has all the psychic powers and you may not duplicate powers.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. A rune priest comes standard with a Runic Weapon, which is what gives you the 4+ negation in 24'', and the option to buy a second 5+ negation (the Wolf Tail Talisman). Njal has a 3+ Negation and comes equipped with a WTT. If you can't stack dispel attempts then a WTT on a rune priest is useless and Njal has redundant wargear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a few more questions:

Lets say I stick Logan with some Long Fangs to make them relentless. If I split fire between, say, a looted wagon and a unit of boyz do I have the option to charge either unit in the assault phase? I've shot at both so I should have the choice, ya?

and

If I put a terminator with CML and storm bolter with a unit of long fangs can I fire the CML and SB at two separate targets?

finally...

Can a terminator with CML fire the CML and a combi weapon or does the CML rule only apply to storm bolters?