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So the Mad Dok Grotsnik apparently comes standard with a power klaw, 'urty syringe, and a slugga.

So how do his close combat attacks work? Does he just have poisoned power klaw attacks? But wouldn't that make him WORSE if he rolled to wound on a 4+ when he's throwing a strength of 8 or 9? Does he get a bonus attack with the slugga? Or?

How does it all fall out???

No, he has to choose between using the Power Klaw or the 'urty syringe each turn. In addition, he cannot ever get the +1 attack for 2 weapons as he must choose between 2 different special weapons.

As in, he can only take one in to battle with him, or he has both and can decide each round of assaults? or?

Also, on the topic of close combat weapons, do power weapons give any sort of bonus to attacking vehicles? I can't find that they do anywhere in the rules, though it seems weird that rending weapons can get a bonus against vehicles though power weapons don't.

Now gwar we've had this debate before so lets not bother getting into it again I'm just going to include the other option (the one you don't agree with) . . .

. . . When reading the rules for multiple close combat weapons you can only use 2 at a time so you must pick the 2 you will be using in this assault phase mad dok can choose the following combination.

power klaw + 'urty syringe = 2 Special close combat weapons, so no bonus attacks and must pick which special effect is used
power klaw + slugga = A Special close combat weapon that needs a matching pair and a normal CCW, so no bonus
'urty syringe + slugga = Special and normal close combat weapons, Yay +1 attacks

. . .Please note gwar dislikes this and if asked will talk at length about wielding. . . I have this avatar for a reason. If in doubt discus with your opponent before playing.

Tri wrote:. . .Please note gwar dislikes this and if asked will talk at length about wielding. . . I have this avatar for a reason. If in doubt discus with your opponent before playing.

Interesting, i always thought it was just based off your name. That's funny.

Heck, DE are allowed RAW to strap certain weapons to their heads, that just proves them superior to you said hand using mon-keigh.

Grorx wrote:As in, he can only take one in to battle with him, or he has both and can decide each round of assaults? or?

He Picks every assault phase what one to use.

Grorx wrote:Also, on the topic of close combat weapons, do power weapons give any sort of bonus to attacking vehicles? I can't find that they do anywhere in the rules, though it seems weird that rending weapons can get a bonus against vehicles though power weapons don't.

No they don't. Them's the rules I am afraid.

@Tri: The rules say all the attacks use the special weapon. Therefore, you must ALWAYS use your special weapon. If you have 2 and a Normal, you must always use your 2 special weapons, thus negating any chance of a bonus attack. If you claim to use the Slugga and Power Klaw, you are breaking the rule that says you have to use your special weapon.

In this one, I agree with Gwar. Never means never...............Not never unless. But never.

Gwar! wrote:
@Tri: The rules say all the attacks use the special weapon. Therefore, you must ALWAYS use your special weapon. If you have 2 and a Normal, you must always use your 2 special weapons, thus negating any chance of a bonus attack. If you claim to use the Slugga and Power Klaw, you are breaking the rule that says you have to use your special weapon.

This is new ... i assume you mean the bit on page 35? but it doesn't say weapon, it says "... their full number of attacks and use any special close combat attacks they have". So what is it talking about? Bio-plasma, mace tale, scythe tail, Nest of Vipers, Servo arms and all the other special close combat attacks out there.

Tri wrote:This is new ... i assume you mean the bit on page 35? but it doesn't say weapon, it says "... their full number of attacks and use any special close combat attacks they have". So what is it talking about? Bio-plasma, mace tale, scythe tail, Nest of Vipers, Servo arms and all the other special close combat attacks out there.

I've read the Calgar's Sword Conundrum argument but I think this situation leads me to believe the Mad Doc can get +1 attack in certain situations. This hinges on three things, however:

1) You must agree that he can choose which two weapons he wants to wield during each assault phase.
2) You must also agree that "any special close combat attack they have" is restricted by which weapons they have chosen to wield in the assault phase.
3) The determination of "any special close combat attack they have" is made after the model chooses which weapons to wield for the assault phase.

The assault phase would then go like this:

a) Mad Doc chooses to wield his Syringe and Slugga.
b) Mad Doc is forced to use any special close combat attack he has at that time ('Urty Syringe)
c) Mad Doc determines if he has an additional CCW for +1 attacks (Slugga counts as an additional CCW)
d) Mad Doc then participates in combat using his full attacks, +1 for extra CCW, all using the special rules for 'Urty Syringe.

If you don't agree with any of 1, 2 or 3, then this argument falls apart. However, it seems fairly valid to me and I'd let the Doc poke my guardsmen as much as his little black heart desires!

DoW

DogOfWar you've missed my point. Special close combat weapons don't make special close combat attacks. They make attacks. However there are special close combat attacks.

best example has got to be
Mace or Scythe tail: "A creature with a mace or scythe tail makes a special close combat attack each turn ...."

Why are these special attacks and special weapons not? Easy special attacks are attacks that don't use the models Attacks (A) characteristics profile. I don't know why people have read special attacks as special weapons.

I agree with Tri. Keep on preachin' brotha! Eldrad holds three emphatic weapons up!

Tri wrote:DogOfWar you've missed my point. Special close combat weapons don't make special close combat attacks. They make attacks. However there are special close combat attacks.

best example has got to be
Mace or Scythe tail: "A creature with a mace or scythe tail makes a special close combat attack each turn ...."

Why are these special attacks and special weapons not? Easy special attacks are attacks that don't use the models Attacks (A) characteristics profile. I don't know why people have read special attacks as special weapons.

Whoops, quoting you was definitely confusing, I apologise.

I understand the point you were making about special close combat attacks (servo arms, bale-eyes, Callidus poisoned blades and the like) but I think I may just like to use you as a springboard for my own 'theories' since we seem to agree and you're much higher on the Dakka totem pole than I.

My point was that even if someone was to argue that special close combat weapons do indeed make 'special attacks,' I believe they would still be wrong in assuming that means the model must choose two special weapons to wield in each assault - in lieu of a special CCW and a normal CCW - and therefore certain models would indeed get their +1 attacks depending on what they were choosing to wield in each assault.

Sorry if that was misunderstood/unappreciated. Riding coat-tails is still FTW, however!

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:Whoops, quoting you was definitely confusing, I apologise.

We really need a faceplam ork ... I did indeed completely miss read what you meant ... ah well no harm done.

Yes, there is no rule stating that special weapons must be used. So there is no reason that a model cannot decide to use one of his special weapons plus a regular ccw in order to get +1 attack.

The whole arguement about whether the model is "using" any weapon that it is carrying also breaks down, because there are only rules for using one or two weapons. If a model were using three+ weapons...thats not actually covered anywhere in the rules.



Sliggoth

Tri wrote: We really need a faceplam ork

OMG

WIN!!!

Tri wrote:Now gwar we've had this debate before so lets not bother getting into it again I'm just going to include the other option (the one you don't agree with) . . .

. . . When reading the rules for multiple close combat weapons you can only use 2 at a time so you must pick the 2 you will be using in this assault phase mad dok can choose the following combination.

power klaw + 'urty syringe = 2 Special close combat weapons, so no bonus attacks and must pick which special effect is used
power klaw + slugga = A Special close combat weapon that needs a matching pair and a normal CCW, so no bonus
'urty syringe + slugga = Special and normal close combat weapons, Yay +1 attacks

. . .Please note gwar dislikes this and if asked will talk at length about wielding. . . I have this avatar for a reason. If in doubt discus with your opponent before playing.

Tri has it right.

Example:Calgar

I can choose to use my sword, and strike at Str 4 I4(IIRC). OR I can choose to use my fists, strike at Str 8 I 1 with +1 Attack.

The fists don't give +1 Attack, as he has to choose to use them.

Also, Gauntlets of Ultramar is 1 weapon, not 2. It just has an effect that lets you count them as 2. It doesn't change the fact that you still cannot get the bonus attack.

Org wrote:

Tri wrote:Now gwar we've had this debate before so lets not bother getting into it again I'm just going to include the other option (the one you don't agree with) . . .

. . . When reading the rules for multiple close combat weapons you can only use 2 at a time so you must pick the 2 you will be using in this assault phase mad dok can choose the following combination.

power klaw + 'urty syringe = 2 Special close combat weapons, so no bonus attacks and must pick which special effect is used
power klaw + slugga = A Special close combat weapon that needs a matching pair and a normal CCW, so no bonus
'urty syringe + slugga = Special and normal close combat weapons, Yay +1 attacks

. . .Please note gwar dislikes this and if asked will talk at length about wielding. . . I have this avatar for a reason. If in doubt discus with your opponent before playing.

Tri has it right.

Example:Calgar

I can choose to use my sword, and strike at Str 4 I4(IIRC). OR I can choose to use my fists, strike at Str 8 I 1 with +1 Attack.

Nope, and here's why. You have two special weapons and you have to choose between them. once you go to the act of choosing, you are now in the two special weapons rule, which says you never get the +1 attack. The only way you could get the bonus attack is if you did not have to choose between two different weapons. but since you do have to choose, that's the rule you use. It's not, ok, I'm going to use this part of this rule to choose and then before I get to the dire consequences of my choice I'm going to jump to a different rule so I can get a bonus. Uh uh, you choose, you lose the +1 attack.

As for the must use a special weapon/attack, yes, you must use one if you have one. Page 35 covers the broad scope of all special attacks, so you can't say I'm not using rending or not using monstrous creature or whatever. Then page 42 covers weapons. BTW, there's an errata on it:


Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first
paragraph.
The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

Original text:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon’s bonuses.

Bottom line, ya got it, ya use it.

Don Mondo has it 100% correct and has expressed it much better than my Trolle Brain was capable of

don_mondo wrote:Bottom line, ya got it, ya use it.

I'm afraid I have to disagree when it comes to characters like the Mad Doc (see Grotsnik Hypothesis above). As for situations like Calgar? I'm not so sure.

This being said, it's not something I'm 100% convinced about so I would confirm with my opponent beforehand just in case. I don't think it's important enough to stop me from playing someone who viewed it the other way.

DoW

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240925.page Has my views on more then 2 weapons and wielding ... read it for why i believe the rules allow a bonus

I give up! I will argue when I get back home.