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So... long time lurker first time poster... Play nice

Only recently have I had the desire to get back into 40k (after a long multi-year haitus in fantasy). So in that vein I've been looking what army I would want to paint up, and that army is nids. I know they are supposed to be getting a new codex sometime next year, but it's GW so who really knows? In the meantime, i want to play 40k now with the current nids book/models.

Anyhow, been looking on the forums for a bit trying to find a decent Nids in 5th edition link to tactics and what they have that works and haven't been able to find any (please link if you have it handy)

From my gathering of 5th edition (having played 10ish games with my CSM's a year ago) I was thinking of building a list around two decent size broods of stealers, and 3 or 4 without numbers small gaunt squads to round up the troops. Should I be building a list around dakka fexes? Dual tyrants? Flyrant? Shootyfexes? What works in 5th edition?

On the meta-game level, how do nids deal with mech builds? I can't see them shooting down a wave-serpent with holofields, how do they deal with it now? What about the wall of russes and chimeras one sees in IG builds?

Basically, what works for nids and what doesn't?

Don't bother with Hormagaunts unless you are going to use a massive brood of fully upgraded dudes.

Don't go with small gaunt squads. Go with about 20 if you're gonna go with without number.

Walking Tyrants with 3 guard are good.
Flyrants are good, either kitted for combat, or with 2 sets of devourers.
Dakka fexes are okay, but since blast weapons have changed, cheap fexes with Barbed stranglers are very good for the points

Warriors with Deathspitters are fun.
Warriors with twin linked Devourers are fun.
Venom-Cannons are just terrible. Awful. Disgustingly, insultingly bad. There isn't much we can do against mech right now. God help you against Monoliths.

Lictors are hampered by being stupidly overcosted and fragile.

I haven't played too much in 5th edition, but this is the stuff that has jumped out at me already.

Just so you know, the new nids book is potentially coming out in February. It seems like a while off, but just so you know, you might be buying a bunch of stuff you won't use in 6 months.

There is very little that really works CONSISTENTLY for bugs. Here are a few things that work most all the time:

outflanking genestealers--They make everyone nervous

barbed stranglers--Having a big template that pins and being able to basically run 6 of them (if you wanted a zilla list) can really hurt light vehicles, hordes, and eventually do damage to meq's.

cover saves--Here's what you can do to make sure everyone has a save: gaunts cover warriors, warriors cover tyrants/fexes. What does that equal? either spend a lot of firepower on the big ones and get swamped or take out the little ones and have a lot of MC's on your doorstep.

large gaunt squads--Because everything revolves around troops in 5th, sitting gaunts on objectives and having them go to ground can make it difficult to dislodge them from range.

assaulting tanks--Now you go against the rear armour no matter what, making genestealers with rending really dangerout against anything that's AV11 or less in back, no matter where they're being hit from.

Now, what's bad about bugs in 5th:

fearless saves: putting gaunts into combat = lots of dead bugs. Letting your big ones get swamped = dead big bugs twice as quickly.

multiple combats: if you don't put all elite bugs into combat and put in fragile units you can kill your big guys, because every wound you lose by means another save for everyone involved.

raveners

hormagaunts

biovores

CC warriors

gargoyles

that, and we have absolutely nothing but fexes for anything that's AV13 or better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is very little that really works CONSISTENTLY for bugs. Here are a few things that work most all the time:

outflanking genestealers--They make everyone nervous

barbed stranglers--Having a big template that pins and being able to basically run 6 of them (if you wanted a zilla list) can really hurt light vehicles, hordes, and eventually do damage to meq's.

cover saves--Here's what you can do to make sure everyone has a save: gaunts cover warriors, warriors cover tyrants/fexes. What does that equal? either spend a lot of firepower on the big ones and get swamped or take out the little ones and have a lot of MC's on your doorstep.

large gaunt squads--Because everything revolves around troops in 5th, sitting gaunts on objectives and having them go to ground can make it difficult to dislodge them from range.

assaulting tanks--Now you go against the rear armour no matter what, making genestealers with rending really dangerout against anything that's AV11 or less in back, no matter where they're being hit from.

Now, what's bad about bugs in 5th:

fearless saves: putting gaunts into combat = lots of dead bugs. Letting your big ones get swamped = dead big bugs twice as quickly.

multiple combats: if you don't put all elite bugs into combat and put in fragile units you can kill your big guys, because every wound you lose by means another save for everyone involved.

raveners

hormagaunts

biovores

CC warriors

gargoyles

that, and we have absolutely nothing but fexes for anything that's AV13 or better.

Gaunt squads can't hold objectives unless there is a Synapse babysitter nearby, so unless you put your objectives near the enemy you will almost certainly be taking some your most dangerous models out of the fight. Annoying.

To be quite frank, 5th edition castrated Tyranids like crazy. Many people seem to think that Necrons got shafted the worst under the new rules, but I disagree. Tyranids went from being one of the best armies in 4th edition (as I understand it, anyway - I missed that edition) to possibly the worst by quite some margin. The only list we have that's even marginally powerful is tons of Carnifexes and Tyrants with Guard backed up by Genestealers and 2 untis of WoN gaunts. Most of the units are basically unplayable. It's depressing.

However, the codex is supposed to be the next one out. If you're like me and enjoy a game regardless of knowing that you're probably going to get smoked and just have to have an army of aliens, Tyranids might not be such a bad choice. I'd keep your force small and basic, though. Monstrous creatures, Genestealers, Warriors, and a few Gaunts are all I'd buy until glorious February rolls around.

When you place objectives you should think about where your army is going to be turn 4. Aggressive armies like Mech or hordes should be placing objectives in the midfield.

I'd like to say that outflanking stealers never make me nervous. In fact, they make me more confident because I know I just have to move away from the edge of the board before turn two, and I know that I have a bit more time to deal with the other threats in the army before they come on.

I play Eldar (not fully mechanized) and Chaos (mechanized).

Ok... thanks for the advice. I hope that 5th edition strengthens the troop choices the same as it has for the other 5th edition army books (orks, marines, IG, SW's, all seem to have excellent troop choices). It follows that gaunts and stealers will get a boost.

Do's
Magnetize carnifex weapons (for dakka, or stranglers or whatever will be the gun of choice in the new book)
2x20 without number cheapo gaunts
16+ strong genestealers w/ improved carapace
Flyrant
Tyrant with bodyguard
Barbed Stranglers over venom cannons

Don'ts
Lictors
Raveners
Hormagaunts

This is all great advice everyone, exactly what I am looking for.

It's always a good idea to magnetize your Monstrous Creatures.

I like brood sizes of ~10 for my genestealers. Too many in one unit and it just becomes a juicy fire target. Too few and it doesn't have the punch to win combats.

Don't make/buy more than three Carnifexes.
There is a very real chance that the option of taking Carnifexes as Elites will go away with the now dex.

Steelmage99 wrote:Don't make/buy more than three Carnifexes.
There is a very real chance that the option of taking Carnifexes as Elites will go away with the now dex.

and for the love of god make sure you A) don't glue the weapons in place or B) magnetize the options

MilkmanAl wrote:To be quite frank, 5th edition castrated Tyranids like crazy. Many people seem to think that Necrons got shafted the worst under the new rules, but I disagree. Tyranids went from being one of the best armies in 4th edition (as I understand it, anyway - I missed that edition) to possibly the worst by quite some margin. The only list we have that's even marginally powerful is tons of Carnifexes and Tyrants with Guard backed up by Genestealers and 2 untis of WoN gaunts. Most of the units are basically unplayable. It's depressing.

However, the codex is supposed to be the next one out. If you're like me and enjoy a game regardless of knowing that you're probably going to get smoked and just have to have an army of aliens, Tyranids might not be such a bad choice. I'd keep your force small and basic, though. Monstrous creatures, Genestealers, Warriors, and a few Gaunts are all I'd buy until glorious February rolls around.

I agree. We got screwed royally and it's very difficult to really make things work consistently in this edition. Hopefully in February we'll get some AT back and some of the costs will get back in line. I think bugs are always fun whether you win or lose but as of now the options really are very limited.

One little dig at wildstyle though... I'm guessing whoever you play isn't using his outflanking genestealers correctly because I play mech armies and they're always nervous. Sure you can just bunch up everyone in the center. I love it when players do that because all the stranglers I have floating around just became a lot more effective and the lictors that deepstrike can almost always wreck a tank when they come in and the dakka warriors/tyrant who have been running have a target rich field that they very much enjoy.

The idea is that you don't bunch up in the center.

You either have units that you are willing to speedbump (I.E. cheap units that will die on the charge) on the edges, or you just move away from the edge after turn 1.

Well if you're smart enough to put speedbump units on the flanks then I'm screwed anyways. At that point I'll just scout them instead...

Big smart poopy-head you.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Well if you're smart enough to put speedbump units on the flanks then I'm screwed anyways. At that point I'll just scout them instead...

Big smart poopy-head you.

What if you're setting up first?

Oh, come on man!

I've already lost, don't throw that in there too!

But seriously, what do I do? Hope for a good roll and put them in cover as far back as they have to go, what else can you do? Try and give them cover and find the biggest target who's closest by.

I think the designers of the next Tyranid codex really need to answer that question.

Always deploy an objective (or 2) in a corner along one of the sides. That way outflankers may still do something potentially useful. It's not the best solution but it's stops them from doing nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways back on topic...

The best way to find out what works best is to make a list and try it out. Proxy if you have to...it's really just about getting a feel for the army/list that you like. If you are like me you will end up with several lists that you really like and have a huge army capable of several different setups depending upon the opponent.

However, things that work:

Flyrants in games no larger than 1500 pts (unless you really like 200 point sinks)

Tyrant with guard are extremely survivable

Elite fexes are great. Barbed strangler or dakka both have their uses.

Warriors equipped with either devourers or deathspitters are good.

Stealers of any variety are excellent, though due to the fear factor they need protection.

1 small brood of gaunts with WoN are a must have to most lists. This does mean that you will need at least 1 zoanthrope to keep them in line (unless you want to waste a brood of warriors).

Carnifexes are the only heavy support worth taking (with the exception above). Most choices are viable...some hate the venom cannon, I swear by it. I use it conjunction with barbed stranglers to put down so much hurt...it hurts. Not exceptional against vehicles, actually downright mediocre, but we have nothing else, so suck it up and get used to it (till the next dex).

Hope this helps.

Good luck

When it comes to the venomcannon remember that it is not zero chance of destroying an enemyt vehicle you should be focused on.
It is 5/6 chances of the enemy vehicle not shooting at your models, giving you a greater chance of doing your thing.

It is a 35 point weapon on its own, before other upgrades. On a hive tyrant it's an expensive autocannon, and on a Carnifex it's a strong autocannon. Either way, you'd need to buy the BS upgrade to hit reliably with the Tyrant, and 50% of the time with the Carnifex. On the Tyrant, you're probably going to have toxin sacs to make it more likely to hurt vehicles and insta-kill some characters(those that aren't immune to that anymore, at least) which is a few more points and a further upgrade tax on the gun, because it's cost increases if you also spent points on toxin sacs. There's plenty of things wrong with the Venom Cannon that makes the Barbed Strangler look better and better because it ignores some of those pitfalls. It can penetrate vehicles. It is a blast weapon, so while it does scatter, at least it doesn't have a good chance to miss altogether like it used to with the Carnifex's unupgraded BS2. It comes at a natural S8 for fexes too, so when it manages to hit a handful of dudes with that large blast it has a better chance to gib characters than the few venom cannon hits that may land on target. Neither of the weapons requires the Toxin Sac upgrade on the fex, although the Barbed Strangler is inexplicably more expensive if you took them despite already being at maximum strength.

Hasn't the issue with the cost of the Barbed Strangler been fixed in the Tyranid FAQ?

Don'ts
Lictors
Raveners
Hormagaunts

A buddy of mine won Balscon with nids, and I'm 90% sure he used a lictor.

Lictors are not bad, but they are support units. Use them for Pheremone Trail and Feeder Tendrils on your outflanking genestealers.

I run a stealershock list with just an ass-ton of stealers with scuttlers, flesh hooks, toxin sacs (so i can glance land raiders to death) multiple lictors and a broodlord.

being able to reroll reserves is Huge, it allows you to time your entrence with a good target of opprotunity, rush in early if need be, or hold back untill late game to snag an objective.

willydstyle wrote:I think the designers of the next Tyranid codex really need to answer that question.

Speaking of that, do we have any idea of who is writhing our new codex? I haven't heard anything...


//Edge

I heard Robin Cruddace.

Is this a good thing? I'm unfamiliar with the name...

Thanks willydstyle!
@ WellGrunt_For_Christ, well he is the guy who wrote the new IG codex. For a full explanation ask HBMC.

*sigh* I was hoping for someone else... well we just have to see how it turns out


//Edge

I'm suspect already... I don't think anyone who writes imperium codexes is capable of being able to write a true xenos codex. But like you said, we'll see. Only a few months, right?

Jupp, a few month of sitting on needles.


//Edge