Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let's say there's a dragon behind some infantry. Keeper sirens it.

Dragon player says that this round he's electing to move on the ground. Charge is an impossible one now, siren wasted.

Alternatively, can the Daemon player control what movement method the dragon uses? Can the Daemon require that the dragon fly to complete it's charge?

The charge IS possible using flying movement, so I would say you are compelled to make the charge (or flee) as you have sufficient movement to do so.

Otherwise frenzied dragons (WoC for example) could elect to only use ground movemebt to avoid things that are in charge reach.

It can charge, so it must...or flee.

Yep, I agree with Bat. It has the ability to charge the keeper, regardless of what the player states for the mode of movement. It MUST then choose to charge it, as it CAN reach, or flee.

I'm not sure how much I concur with that reasoning. If I siren song a unit of black orks 9 inches away, must the Ork player call his Waaagh so he can reach? What about banners that can be popped for extra charge distance? Must those be used?

Your example isnt quite the same as what we are discussing. The Black Orcs, agreed that they could "possibly" reach if an ability was used, would not be able to charge the keeper under 'normal' curcumstances. The Dragon has a Flying move, and a ground move, that it can utilize without special conditions....it can normally move 20"...therefore, it has range. At least, that is how i see it.

What's the difference between the black orks popping their banner and the dragon flying? Both are seperate choices, independent from the charge, without which the charge fails.

You can even throw charging other units out of the way in there, it's another unconnected decision that might be vital to a Siren charge. Do I have to charge my skirmishers out of the way if you siren the Shaggoth behind them?

40kenthusiast wrote:What's the difference between the black orks popping their banner and the dragon flying? Both are seperate choices, independent from the charge, without which the charge fails.

This is the way I'd view that situation as well. The dragon can only make that charge if the controlling player chooses to fly. Unless all units that have the ability to gain necessary extra distance also do the same, I don't see why a creature that has the option to fly cannot use its option to walk instead.

40kenthusiast wrote:What's the difference between the black orks popping their banner and the dragon flying? Both are seperate choices, independent from the charge, without which the charge fails.

You can even throw charging other units out of the way in there, it's another unconnected decision that might be vital to a Siren charge. Do I have to charge my skirmishers out of the way if you siren the Shaggoth behind them?

Would you make the same arguments re: Frenzy? I see Siren as a compelled charge, ruleswise-equivalent to Frenzy.

All we have in the way of additional clarification is this:

Daemons FAQ wrote:Q. Is Siren Song supposed to read that you have to charge the Daemon with the Siren Song ability as per the normal Warhammer rules?
A. Yes, indeed. Remember that the unit must be able to charge....

The dragon is perfectly able to charge the daemon, and therefore must.

That's a FAQ that restricts Siren. The question is asking, essentially, whether Siren is bound by the normal rules (that is, the charge must be a legal one, as opposed to just using it on turn one to drag them forward half their distance). It is. You can't read that to increase Siren's powers, it's a reductive answer.

Quote:

The dragon is perfectly able to charge the daemon, and therefore must.

Endquote:

Only if it flies, and that's up to the controlling player of the dragon. If you are giving it to the Siren user, that's a strong additional power for his ability. Does he also get to choose what weapons the charging unit uses? How about whether their characters challenge?

Unconnected decisions related to units that charge do not fall under Siren's perview. It pertains solely to whether or not the target unit declares a charge at the Siren weilder.

40kenthusiast wrote:That's a FAQ that restricts Siren. The question is asking, essentially, whether Siren is bound by the normal rules (that is, the charge must be a legal one, as opposed to just using it on turn one to drag them forward half their distance). It is. You can't read that to increase Siren's powers, it's a reductive answer.

Quote:
The dragon is perfectly able to charge the daemon, and therefore must.
Endquote:

Only if it flies, and that's up to the controlling player of the dragon. If you are giving it to the Siren user, that's a strong additional power for his ability. Does he also get to choose what weapons the charging unit uses? How about whether their characters challenge?

Unconnected decisions related to units that charge do not fall under Siren's perview. It pertains solely to whether or not the target unit declares a charge at the Siren weilder.

The dragon is still able to fly. The controlling player cannot negate the ability for it to do so (unless, of course, you start it in a forest, preventing it from flying at all).

I disagree with your assessment of the FAQ, though - it's explanatory in nature. I also don't read it as expanding on Siren's powers - it is, at best, a little more explanation of an ability that doesn't get a lot of words in the DoC Book.

Let's dispense with the reduction to absurdity arguments - no, Siren cannot force you to move other units to make a charge legal, and no, Siren cannot dictate to you which weapons you must use on the charge.

I return to my question, though - would you argue the same position against Frenzy? If not, where do you find a distinction?

So would a group of Frenzied Orcs be required to use their WAAGH! in order to charge somebody if there was the possibility that they could do so?

I think its reasonable that if the model has a choice between two movement forms it has to take the one that will make a successful charge. The model/unit however, does not have to use one shot items or one shot abilities in this case.

This seems reasonable for game play.

Sazzlefrats wrote:I think its reasonable that if the model has a choice between two movement forms it has to take the one that will make a successful charge. The model/unit however, does not have to use one shot items or one shot abilities in this case.

This seems reasonable for game play.

That sounds right to me.

You can't force something to charge that cant make contact, so, in the least, the Siren would not be wasted.



Clay

I agree with Janthkin and Sazzlefrats.

I can see it now.

"Your orks would be in range, if you popped your banner to get the extra movement, so you have to charge."

"But I didn't take that banner."

"Ah, but you COULD have. So since it's POSSIBLE to charge if you'd taken that banner, and used it now, you must - so you have to, and it's going to fail."

Silly silly lawyering. I agree with the dragon having to fly and charge, though, btw. Not with the forced popping of Waagh or magic banners.