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2009/09/26 01:02:58
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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I created the rules for this guy a while ago... I wanted to make a GK shock assault army, and found the HQ/Troops choices lacking for an all deep strike assault pure GK force. so I made this guy  what do you think?
Grandmaster Mandulis, of the Grey Knights
may only be chosen in an army consisting of grey knight models entirely
only usable in games of 1500 points or above
Points Cost: 250pts
WS.. BS..S..T..W..I...A.. LD.. Sv
7....5....4..4...4..5...4..10...2+
Wargear: Relic Nemesis weapon, Hand of the Emperor, Icon of the Just, Terminator Armor, may take any additional wargear at cost listed in Codex: Daemonhunters
Relic Nemesis weapon- Crafted by the finest artificers on titan, it was gifted to mandulis when he attained the rank of Grand Master. It counts as a master crafted nemesis weapon, that grants +3 strength to the user.
Hand of the Emperor- A holy psycannon, that blasts the daemonic enemies of man from the sight of Mandulis. Counts as a master crafted psycannon, with rending.
Special Rules; Master psyker, Iron Will, Elite Strike Leader
Master psyker - Knows all Grey Knight psychic powers, in addition to the SM power Null Zone. May use 2 powers per turn.
Iron Will - Should Mandulis take a wound from a weapon that causes instant death, he will instead take a single wound, but counts as killed for killpoints and mission objectives.
Elite Strike Leader- Any army led by Mandulis may take Grey Knight terminators as a troops choice.
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2009/09/27 14:41:54
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Lord of the Fleet
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Instead of the Iron Will rule, why not just make him an Eternal Warrior?
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2009/09/27 16:13:02
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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He looks very undercosted for what he does, drop null zone, mainly as it has no use for him. Also increase his points to about 300.
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2009/09/27 16:31:23
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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null zone has PLENTY of use for him... seeing as he's leading an army of grey knight terminators, they all pack power weapons.
as for why no eternal warrior... In the only fluff referencing mandulis, he stayed alive just long enough to finish his duty to the emperor, and then died in the death throes of his vanquished enemy. Not exactly eternal warrior, but close.
as for points cost... he's to be used in an army consisting almost entirely of grey knight terminators. as it is, in a 1500 point list, that will be like 20 models... is he really THAT undercosted?
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2009/09/27 17:11:13
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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He has a strength 7 nemiesis force weapon, that could kill pretty much anything he got into combat with. And for null zone, its a space marine power, as he's a grey knight he would never of learnt it. If he is too be used with deepstriking GK then he should be able to assault with the unit he went with, would make sense if he is an elite strike leader.
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2009/09/27 17:28:28
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Lord of the Fleet
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He could have learnt Null Zone, if he was a regular SM Epistolary that was singled out for GK training.
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2009/09/27 17:39:13
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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Dosen't work like, Grey Knights aren't space marines before hand, there still people and as such there only 12-13 when their singled out. So unless he has lots of contact with space marine chapters (which is doubtful because the grey knights are the Imperiums greatest secret before chaos) then he'd never have the chance to learn it.
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2009/09/27 17:40:06
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Iron Will is already a Special Rule. Look it up under Inquisitor Lord. Use Mantle of Aphelia from the WH codex, it does exactly the same thing.
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2009/09/27 20:40:22
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
The Labyrinth
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Ah, but phantommaster, you've forgotten that Iron Will is ALSO already a special rule. Look it up under Comissar Yarrick.
Now, my thoughts
Horst wrote:
Grandmaster Mandulis, of the Grey Knights
may only be chosen in an army consisting of grey knight models entirely
only usable in games of 1500 points or above
This is all fine. The restriction to Grey Knight armies only is an interesting one. Serves as a minor point reducer.
Horst wrote:
Points Cost: 250pts
WS..BS..S..T..W..I...A..LD..Sv
7....5....4..4...4..5...4..10...2+
250 points. That puts him at the ranks of the most expensive Special Characters, Abaddon, Marneus Calgar, and the big bads of the SWs.
+2 WS and +1 wound over a 145 point GM.
Horst wrote:
Wargear: Relic Nemesis weapon, Hand of the Emperor, Icon of the Just, Terminator Armor, may take any additional wargear at cost listed in Codex: Daemonhunters
I have one problem here. "may take additional wargear..." That's not how Special Characters work. Special characters come with their options already chosen for the most part. I have a suggestion to fix this in a moment.
Horst wrote:
Relic Nemesis weapon- Crafted by the finest artificers on titan, it was gifted to mandulis when he attained the rank of Grand Master. It counts as a master crafted nemesis weapon, that grants +3 strength to the user.
Hand of the Emperor- A holy psycannon, that blasts the daemonic enemies of man from the sight of Mandulis. Counts as a master crafted psycannon, with rending.
When I make a character, I like to calculate how they would be if they were scratch-built. The problem here, is that both of these are very close to existing things, but with major differences. I'd like to suggest some alternatives.
The Hand of Justice: Crafted in the Age of Darkness, by holy artificers on Titan, this nemesis force weapon was a gift to Mandulis upon attaining the rank of Grand Master. Due to a variable setting, Mandulis may either use it as a master-crafted Nemesis Force Weapon, or as a Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer. He must decide which at the beginning of the assault phase. If he uses it as a Thunder Hammer, he may take a psychic test to slay outright a wounded target, as per a force weapon.
Hand of the Emperor. at first I was confused by this weapon, as I had forgotten that Psycannons still allow armor saves (I play against orks and tyranid, mostly). However, now that I remember that, I'm relatively fine with this item.
Horst wrote:
Special Rules; Master psyker, Iron Will, Elite Strike Leader
Master psyker - Knows all Grey Knight psychic powers, in addition to the SM power Null Zone. May use 2 powers per turn.
Iron Will - Should Mandulis take a wound from a weapon that causes instant death, he will instead take a single wound, but counts as killed for killpoints and mission objectives.
Elite Strike Leader- Any army led by Mandulis may take Grey Knight terminators as a troops choice.
Some interesting special rules. For clarity's sake, you should have included "Special Character, Fearless, Grey Knight", and so forth, but these are good enough to focus on.
Master Psyker. I'm vaguely unsure of this rule. It feels almost as if you gave it to him with the thought "Well, I'll be fielding a terminator army, I won't have any real psykers." It "splits focus" in a way. What I would do is the following:
Mind of Iron: Chapter Master Mandulis is known for his unyielding faith in the Emperor, and his quest to be a perfect exemplar of his wrath. He has trained his mind as often as his body. He may use two psychic powers a turn, and knows the powers Word of the Emperor and The Emperor's Inescapable Wrath.
The Emperor's Inescapable Wrath: This power functions as the SM Librarian "Null Zone" power.
These powers focus him on being a clearly shock-trooper assault character. He has a power that stops opponents from charging so that he may, and one that makes it more likely for him to kill his foes.
To avoid confusion, as phantom master pointed out, let's re-name Iron Will.
Duty Before Death: Any attack that wound inflict Instant Death to Mandulis instead deals one wound. However, he is treated as dead for the purposes of kill points and mission objectives.
Elite Strike Leader, pretty standard.
Now, let's take a look at how expensive this guy should be.
GKGM: 145+Icon of the Just 25+Psycannon 30+ Terminator Armor 20+ Thunder Hammer 25
245
Word of the Emperor 10
2 psychic powers ~50
Duty Before Death 10-15 points. I normally price EW at around 20, and this is weaker.
Terminators as troops. This is a tricky one to price, as one of the few guys who does it, Belial, pays apparently -15 points for it. However, if we look objectively, we learn the following: taking terminators as troops means that there will be less models on the field, a problem the grey knights already struggle with. It does make them harder to kill in a blow by blow sense, but each loss is a higher fraction. I'm going to price this at 10 points.
Finally, he gets a -10 points, as his lack of inquisitors limits his selections.
So what do we have as a final price?
245+60+20-10=335.
Which is clearly wrong.
Some of you just got confused, so allow me to demonstrate.
For 275 points, I can take Abaddon the despoiler, who is tougher(4(5)), stronger(8 all the time), and faster (I:6) than this guy. He doesn't have psychic powers, or allow terminators as troops, and yes, his gun is weaker, but are those options worth 60 points? especially given the stat differences?
For 265 I can take Marneus Calgar in Termie Armor. Calgar and this guy have almost identical stats (1 point WS in your guy's favor). Marneus doesn't have psychic powers. BUt he re-rolls to wound; his ARMY chooses to pass or fail morale; He drops an orbital bombardment; He has a bonus attack when he uses his power fists; and he has real eternal warrior. Again, the differences should NOT be 70 points to you.
275 is Logan Grimnar. Who is, in many ways, maybe the best guy to compare this to. For one thing, Logan can make terminator troops as well. Your weapons skill is higher, and you have more wounds, but he has more attacks. Also, your weapon skill being higher is a moot point, since he hits on a 3+ always. And he resists psychic powers. Once per game, he gives a good chunk of his army +1 attack. He bestows a special rule on himself and his unit every turn. He can distribute attacks between relic blade and power fist. He's Stubborn, so he never gets bit in the ass by Fearless. And he has real eternal warrior.
So, given these real examples of characters, I suggest pricing your character at maybe 270. That seems a bit more fitting.
(Also, why not knock his weapon skill down by one? He's the only space marine with 7. (not counting chaos))
Before I go, I stated earlier I'd suggest an alternative on the "pick any wargear". Personally, I'd have 3 or so items that he could pick. Like:
Mandulis may take one of the following pieces of wargear at +10 points: Unguents of Warding, Sacred Incense, or a teleport homer.
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2009/09/27 21:01:33
Subject: Grandmaster Mandulis
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Horst wrote:I created the rules for this guy a while ago... I wanted to make a GK shock assault army, and found the HQ/Troops choices lacking for an all deep strike assault pure GK force. so I made this guy what do you think?
Grandmaster Mandulis, of the Grey Knights
may only be chosen in an army consisting of grey knight models entirely
only usable in games of 1500 points or above
Points Cost: 270 pts
WS.. BS..S..T..W..I...A.. LD.. Sv
7....5....4..4...4..5...4..10...2+
Wargear: The Hand of Justice, Hand of the Emperor, Icon of the Just, Terminator Armor, may choose 1 additional relic from the following list, at the cost listed:
Sacred Incense 10 points
Holy Relic 30 points
Grimoire of True Names 10 points
The Hand of Justice: Crafted in the Age of Darkness, by holy artificers on Titan, this nemesis force weapon was a gift to Mandulis upon attaining the rank of Grand Master. Due to a variable setting, Mandulis may either use it as a master-crafted Nemesis Force Weapon, or as a Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer. He must decide which at the beginning of the assault phase. If he uses it as a Thunder Hammer, he may take a psychic test to slay outright a wounded target, as per a force weapon.
Hand of the Emperor- A holy psycannon, that blasts the daemonic enemies of man from the sight of Mandulis. Counts as a master crafted psycannon, with rending.
Special Rules; Mind of Iron, Only in Death, Elite Strike Leader, Grey Knight, Fearless, Independent Character
Mind of Iron - Knows the psychic power Holocaust, Word of the Emperor, and Null Zone. May use 2 powers per turn.
Only in Death - Should Mandulis take a wound from a weapon that causes instant death, he will instead take a single wound, but counts as killed for killpoints and mission objectives.
Elite Strike Leader- Any army led by Mandulis may take Grey Knight terminators as a troops choice.
the weapon rules work... the fluff behind mandulis' sword says it was made in a different age of nemesis weapon design... heavier, and more for cutting through bone/armor, rather than slashing, though capable of doing both in the hands of someone skilled with it.
The master psyker thing, Its not that I won't have any real psykers, all grey knights are psykers. The grandmasters are supposed to be amongst the most powerful psykers in the imperium. They are supposed to be warriors unrivaled by anyone in the normal chapters... which is why I gave him WS7. It just doesn't seem right that your average chapter master is equal to one of the most powerful warriors the imperium has ever seen. Mandulis should be a match for ANY model in 1 on 1 combat... abaddon included. Hell, with his force weapon being a grey knight weapon, I would think he is. They would probably end up killing each other, really.
The power of null zone honestly makes more sense for daemonhunters to know than anyone else. Who does null zone hurt more than daemons? I don't really want to re-name the power, it just kinda makes things more confusing.
I was also thinking of creating rules for a special "retinue" of veterans for him... 2 wound terminators costing around 85 points per guy... what do you think? I'm probably going to only field him in apocalypse battles, though. People around here are a bit uptight about following the rules.
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