Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

During 'ard boyz, a unit of dwarves charged my grave guard. The dwarves had a hero on shieldbearers in it. Base sizes are the same, but my unit was 6 wide to his 5. He hit my unit on the left side, and then aligned. My movement tray was a little too big for my unit, things had gotten shifted around due to models dying and being re-summoned, etc. but in the ensuing combat, I kind of figured we were lined up along the side so that all models were touching three models [except the guys on the very ends], one in front and two at the corners.

Apparently I was wrong.

The lineup as I thought it, with d's being dwarves, b being his BSB, and L's being his dwarf lord. g's are graveguard, V's are vampires.

ddddd
ddddd
ddddd
bLLdd
vvgggg
gggggg
gggggg
ggggg


Ok so, vampire number 2 [that's second from the left] ends up in a challenge with his dwarf lord on the shieldbearers. So he's essentially out of the combat. My graveguard try to attack, and he ends up telling me I only have 3 attacks, not 5. The leftmost graveguard is the unit champion. This doesn't make sense - he's touching corners to the first dwarf [first from the left after the characters], right?

Well as it happens, he was apparently about.....1/8 of a base length OFF, not quite lined up left side to left side. Since the dward lord was in a challenge, he didn't exist and thus my gg champion was now, technically, not in btb with anyone and thus could not attack.

Remember he came from off to the left somewhere, hit, then aligned. In my mind, he would align only until all models were fighting, and go no further. He claims he can align however he likes, so long as all models were fighting. I even tried to say "but in so doing, you've made my champion unable to fight" but he countered with the fact that when he charged, he was able to - it was the challenge afterwards that made him no longer btb.

So basically, he aligned just slightly more than he had to. Is this legal? I didn't think you could slide MORE, arbitrarily, still keeping the same number of models engaged, in order to avoid things like character to character contact, or even to do something sneaky like bring a BSB or general closer to other units [theoretically, he could have shifted all the way over to the right if he wanted to, so long as everyone was still touching, for completely free].

Was this legal? Is it allowed?

The rules require you to maximise the number of models in BtB with the enemy on a charge, provided you have the movement to do it.

Challenging can be useful for many reasons, and one of those more obscure reasons is avoiding BtB with an undesirable foe. Or sometimes it just happens. You can always issue another challenge.

I understand that, but he moved MORE than he needed to maximize. Basically take two units lined up perfectly like the rulebook pictures, then shift one over about 1/8 a cm. That's what he did, during his "free alignment". Can you do that?

if he has the moevement to do so and he doesn't reduce the total number of models in the combat (not counting the challenge because that comes after) then yes.

Errrr.... no?

Edit to explain: You're allowed to wheel once during your charge to bring in maximum models. What other "free movement" is there? The adjustment to maximize models after the charge is completed is (as I had clarified for me in another thread on Friday) is listed in the appendix, and is specifically stated NOT to be allowed by the letter of the rules.

I think he aligned too much. All the diagrams show the models in 2 enemy units perfectly squaring up to each other and any shift from that is not supported by the rules.

You MUST ensure the maximum number of MODELS are in combat as possible, assuming you have the movement.

Alignment is NOT, repeat NOT, sliding, but simply a "wheel in" to bring the units into contact rather than at an angle. You cannot shift models sideways at this point, it has to be performed on the charge move.

Essentially as all base sizes are the same every single GG model must be in combat, assuming there was room in the charge to maximise models. It is impossible for one of the GG nto to be able to hit in that situation.

Arctik Ferangi is correct.

The charging unit is required to wheel as much as is needed (within the limits of its possible movement) to maximize the number of models which are in contact on both sides. As noted, the Challenge takes place at the start of the combat phase, long after the charge move was made, so it does not factor in.

Note that maximizing by Wheeling (using your normal charge movement) is required by the rules, and is NOT the same thing as maximizing by Sliding, which is, as the online appendix points out, NOT legal under the rules, though it is a common house rule.

To make a long story short, the dwarf lord on shieldbearers can indeed use his 40mm wide base size to pull this trick, and shut one of your GG models out of the combat this way. Remember that your champion is allowed to move around in the front rank in your subsequent movement phase, however.

Legal as it may be, I would not treat him as a gentleman afterward.

It's 'ard boyz. The point is to play hard, use the cheesiest lists and tactics. While cheating, of course, is verboten, using fairly normal legal rules loopholes should not be grounds for contempt, particularly in this context.

Oh, of course! I neglected to mention that I'd never play in an 'ard boyz game, so that would be my de facto policy. But if I did play in such a tourney, I'd be anything but contemptuous

Oh I don't mind sneaky underhandedness. I just don't like cheating.

Except when it comes to DE Hydra shenanigans. Though that may be legal, that's so far above the d*ck moves scale that I just want to reach out and strangle them.

And by shenanigans I don't mean "taking 3", that's fine. I mind when they use the beastherders, which don't technically exist, to box in your unit, which can't charge the beasttenders, but can't reach the hydra because the tenders [enemy models] are in the way. THAT gets me going.

It is not playing hard, It's cheating. If the charge was lined up perfectly to end like that, cool (this would basically require a perfectly straight charge) If not, no senor, that dog won't hunt. No where does it say that you can shift as much/ in any direction that you like and saying that they had movement left over from the charge is BS, you can't move laterally during a charge.

But you can choose to wheel as much or as little as you like, provided a) you maximize the total number of models in contact on each side, and b) you keep within your normal maximum charge distance, not counting the "free" alignment wheel. Whitestagg, I get the feeling that you are thinking he used the SLIDE maneuver, which is illegal, though oddly encouraged as a common and sportsmanlike HOUSE RULE in the online FAQ/appendix.

Spellbound- the handlers should not interfere with charges in any way.

Spellbound wrote:Oh I don't mind sneaky underhandedness. I just don't like cheating.

Except when it comes to DE Hydra shenanigans. Though that may be legal, that's so far above the d*ck moves scale that I just want to reach out and strangle them.

And by shenanigans I don't mean "taking 3", that's fine. I mind when they use the beastherders, which don't technically exist, to box in your unit, which can't charge the beasttenders, but can't reach the hydra because the tenders [enemy models] are in the way. THAT gets me going.

You're thinking of the rule that prohibits the beast MASTERS from being targeted by CC or shooting. This does nothing to block a charge. Also there is an exception to the CC rules- if the model is unable to attack the Hydra, but it can attack the beastmaster, it may attack the beastmaster.

To represent this fairly I usually have my models follow behind my hydra and then only bring them to the front once in CC. There's not really any devious way to use them to box an enemy out...

Sorry I guess I should rephrase my answer. I was assuming you were using the sliding rules FAQ and not the clipping rules FAQ. If you are using the sliding rules then yes he may adjust(slide) the models to get as many in contact as possible. So as long as he fulfills that rule he can slide them into any position he wishes. If you are not using the Sliding FAQ, or you are using the Clipping FAQ then it is wrong/illegal the way he did it.

Most tournaments using either the Slidding or Clipping FAQ always good to check which they are using before you arrive/start playing. At my 'Ard Boyz they were using the Slidding FAQ.

No matter which you use it's a legit move. Even under "clipping okay" core rules, as long as you have sufficient Move allowance to wheel and line it up right.

Ahhh.... The rules say that small adjustments may be made to bring the maximum number of units into the fight, yes?

Then how the heck is making a small adjustment to remove a unit from the fight legal?

It's legit because he's in the fight - until the challenge. Once the dwarf lord is in a challenge, he's an inelligible target. NOW, when the unit champion goes to fight, he was out of btb [because the dwarf lord "isn't there" and he's touching nothing else] and thus can't attack.

Had he lined up in a nice square, I'd be touching corners. But he didn't. And if the dwarf lord was any other character on a small base I'd also still be in the fight, but his base is double wide when carried by shieldbearers.

I would say it is legal(and extremely well measured) if he wheeled during his charge and contacted your unit at that spot.

I would say that it is not legal if he wheeled, contacted your unit, and then slid over slightly(even a few mm) in order to create the situation.

Well under the fighting a challenge (BRB pg 77) section it reads. "Once a chalenge is accepted, the character that accepted the challenge is movedin ranks so that the two protagonists are opposite each other. If this is not possible, then the challenger is moved in the ranks to a position where he is in base contact with the character that accepted the challenge." No where dose it say remove the models from the unit. So all models should be in contact.

mick

@orcplayer: The issue isn't that all models are in contact, but that the dwarf lord is wider than the opposing models, and it's entirely possible that the lord is the only target in base contact with a given model, but once in a challenge, only the opposing challenger may swing on the dwarf lord, thereby denying that model the ability to fight.

dmateja wrote:I would say that it is not legal if he wheeled, contacted your unit, and then slid over slightly(even a few mm) in order to create the situation.

I'm just getting into fantasy, but this has been a concern of mine. It certainly happens a lot in 40k... and the movement in fantasy seem to matter so much more. What are the chances that he charged in so that he could wheel perfectly to have the models line up like that? Maybe the chances are good for an experienced player (I don't know) but it also seems likely that a player would fudge it a bit while wheeling to create a situation like this.

It's not all that difficult. Nor is it a big enough issue to really make a big difference.

Two hatred killing blow attacks make a big difference.

What he actually did was hit along the side. It would have been clipping, honestly, unless we did the fuzzy aligning that the rulebook mentions. He then slid over....not quite all the way, resulting in that situation. As it was, the dwarf lord was in btb with the vampire issuing the challenge - but as they said, the champion was ONLY in btb with the dwarf lord, and so wasn't in contact with rank and file models.

Hang on, you were playing with sliding?

I think the first point that led to the trouble was the "things had gotten shifted around due to models dying and being re-summoned" business. If the positions of the models aren't clear in the first place, you're both doing it wrong. If the actual model positioning is fuzzy, you're inevitably going to run into problems and disagreements.

If you were already using sliding and "fuzzy positioning" then I don't think the Dwarf player should be able to deny you the attacks based on a couple mm out of BTB.

Spellbound wrote:It's legit because he's in the fight - until the challenge. Once the dwarf lord is in a challenge, he's an inelligible target. NOW, when the unit champion goes to fight, he was out of btb [because the dwarf lord "isn't there" and he's touching nothing else] and thus can't attack.

Had he lined up in a nice square, I'd be touching corners. But he didn't. And if the dwarf lord was any other character on a small base I'd also still be in the fight, but his base is double wide when carried by shieldbearers.

Then the champion and the character actually fighting the Dwarf lord needed to switch places.

The intent of the rules is to get all figures in base contact into the fight. Using the challenge rules to try and cut two attacks out of your opponent's fight is cheesy, and cheating to boot.

Spellbound wrote:What he actually did was hit along the side. It would have been clipping, honestly, unless we did the fuzzy aligning that the rulebook mentions. He then slid over....not quite all the way, resulting in that situation.

This is what I thought sounded like it happened. It would seem to me to be OK to play with sliding (as a rookie player, I probably would benefit from that) but if you're going to slide, slide all the way, don't fudge it to your advantage.