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I was checking through my Imperial Guard codex and I noticed that Ogryns seem to be powerfully over priced. I checked the GW Errata and FAQ but it doesn't seem to address this issue. The big ol' guys seem toe be priced at 40pts a piece, which must be a typo. Has anyone heard of this being rectified?

Obviously this is a joke. Cuddace made a most MASSIVE blunder but this issue doesn't really belong in General Discussion or Proposed Rules, as it is obviously and blatantly a mistake Games Workshop is refusing to even recognize to exist (which is sadly all too common for GW).

So I am asking how other Imperial Guard players are working with this. Are you getting permission from your opponent to drop their price so they are worth taking? Do you have house rules for such a thing? Has anyone heard of any tournament rules specifying a price change? Or are you leaving them out of your lists completely, only to appear (maybe, probably not) in Apocalypse/Mega Battles?

Odds are, the forum moderators are not going to find this thread humorous/legitimate, and I will probably be warned and the thread either moved or locked. But this is really the only MAJOR issue with the Guard Codex and has erked more than a fair share of Imperial Guard players who have been loyally awaiting a chance to field their $20 a piece Ogryn models. It is a problem with the codex that can easily be dealt with, and needs to be treated as the problem it is, not just a "Proposed Rule" or wishful thinking. Many other gaming companies will recognize and address, yes even fix!, problems with their current material, sometimes even before they get complaints! Why can't Games Workshop.

Skinnattittar wrote:Okay, let us compare five Ogryns to equal value of FORTY Guardsmen (assume in the standard ten man squad) in hand-to-hand with Space Marines and their equivalents.

Ogryn/Guardsmen
Attacks
15/48
Hit
7.5/24
Wound
5/8
Killed
1.6r/2.6r

So the Guardsmen kill more compared to Ogryns. If they are assaulting you get bonuses. That ends up like this, even taking into account their +1 Strength for Furious Charge:
Ogryns/Guardsmen
2.7r/5.1r

Guardsmen still make uncomfortably close to double the kills. So let us observe their meatshield abilities versus Bolters, twenty shots.

Ogryn/Guardsmen
4.4r/8.8r

Ooh, ow, Guardsmen bit it there, twice as many wounds. But how many points is that?

O/G
59.259/44.4r

Well, Ogryns still lost out there, but not by much. We really should consider what happened after they are shot up then assault. Since both only have I3 they attack second, so number of Marine Casualties are... Math hammer go!:
O/G
1.54321/3.2181

Oof, Ogryns lost by a lot there in the end. In the end Ogryns lost 88.8r points worth of models and the Guardsmen lost 74.074 points worth of models. So the points lost were pretty close, but the casualties inflicted were very different, almost twice as much. Not to mention the Guardsmen have a bit more flexibility in use, since they are troops they can hold objectives, and since no-one ever complains about the Guard not having enough Troops slots to fill, they free up an important Elites choice for something more useful.

I didn't post this before, I was wrong for not doing so.

EDIT: Added Math Hammering

I cannot imagine them making a $20 model with point costs making them restrictive to field en masse. Especially when the rules do not make them useful either.

Ogryn aren't horribly overcosted, maybe by only 5 points.

Field a bunch & they will absorb alot of firepower, assuming it isnt a str10 pie plate.

They are totally unique in that a T5 3W model thats kinda hitty in close-combat.

If they had FNP, gave them +1 Strength in CC and counted as power weapons (or power fists) then I'd think about it.

They're fun for fluff (kinda) but that's it. Leave them in the box (or better yet, at the store).

DoW

Razerous wrote:Field a bunch & they will absorb alot of firepower, assuming it isnt a str10 pie plate.

They are totally unique in that a T5 3W model thats kinda hitty in close-combat.

It is not a question of whether or not they do a job, it is whether or not they do a job worth their points cost, and being pointed the same as a Terminator.... well which would you rather ever have? Period. In any situation for their points cost?

Run a cost/effect ratio on Ogryns and they are beaten out by the average Guardsmen in every way, shooting, assaulting, being shot, being assaulted, mobility, coverage, flexibility, speciality, shoot then assault, meat shielding.... everything. Run them against just about any foe in the game at equal cost and they lose by HUGE margins every time. I'm sorry, but being so far at the bottom of the gak pile and being ignored just isn't cool. Even some high priced units have practical situations where they are very useful.

I think you PMed me by accident. I just got this in my inbox:

Please justify your assertion that Ogryns are not overpriced.

I didn't say they weren't overpriced, just not horribly so. 35 points would have been fair.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I think you PMed me by accident. I just got this in my inbox:

Please justify your assertion that Ogryns are not overpriced.

I didn't say they weren't overpriced, just not horribly so. 35 points would have been fair.

I I meant to PM you that. If you are going to make a statement contrary to a given, you have to justify it, even if I didn't justify mine initially.

This is a big problem, actually. So I will break this down, even if it is off topic.

When someone makes a statement without making a justification, there are two general reasons why they did not make a justification. Either they believe this is an ambient known (i.e. everyone knows this to be true) for example, if I were to say "The world is a sphere." Or, they are just trying to get attention/cause trouble. Now one has to assume one or the other if they wish to engage in a discussion to the contrary. So you can assume they are arrogant/idiotic (in the same way a young child just makes a statement without thought or knowledge) and simply say "nuh-uh!" or some such, and hope that is the end of it (which it won't and is just as childish), or you can assume that they are assuming it is common knowledge.

Two options now exist. You can assume that as far as they know their statement is true, and you can put forward your reasons as to why they are wrong and/or your thoughts on the matter, or you can ask them to justify their statement. Simply saying "you are wrong" is neither of those options and is not very helpful. If I were to reply in kind, we would be throwing "nuh-uh" and "uh-huhs" back and forth until the Star Child is born and leads humanity to a new golden age of union and purges the galaxy of lesser kinds. In such an event, both of our parties would probably be included among those removed for being so idiotic and insane.

uh-huh

If your Ogryns are overpriced then my Thunderwolf Cavalry are also overpriced and so are my Land Raiders. Quick, I want them for 1/3 of the points cost NOW!

Moving to Proposed Rules.

Gwar! wrote:If your Ogryns are overpriced then my Thunderwolf Cavalry are also overpriced and so are my Land Raiders. Quick, I want them for 1/3 of the points cost NOW!

Could you elaborate, Gwar? If I remember correctly, not too long ago in General Discussion you were of the opinion that Ogryns are painfully overpriced. I know not of Thunderwolf Cavalry, but considering the game board effectiveness of Landraiders, their value as transports, value as gun trucks, and as bullet magnets, considering that extremely effective lists have been made for tournaments where Landraiders are the central theme, I would have to say that they are not ineffectively overpriced. Please Gwar, I know you are capable of making discussion, your intellect is usually apparent, but as of late you seem to have become increasingly belligerent and ineffectual at making coherent discussion. This is not a GW flaming thread or a whiner's plea, I hope you know me better than that.

I am just saying, they may be overpriced, but so are a lot of other things. That doesn't give you a moral right to demand their points cost be reduced. If it was an error, they would have errata'd it, which they didn't, so it was not an error.

Not that it particularly matters, even with a points reduction almost everything else in the IG Codex is better than Ogryns.

Iorek wrote:Moving to Proposed Rules.

Proposed Rules? Please, this is obviously more General Discussion by at least a factor of three! There isn't even a proposed rule on the thread yet once you ignore MasterSlowPoke's aimless suggestion!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:I am just saying, they may be overpriced, but so are a lot of other things. That doesn't give you a moral right to demand their points cost be reduced. If it was an error, they would have errata'd it, which they didn't, so it was not an error.

Not that it particularly matters, even with a points reduction almost everything else in the IG Codex is better than Ogryns.

Actually, Gwar, I'm pretty sure I have the moral right to demand anything I want as a customer in a free market. However being an individual makes it unlikely my demand will be heard, but if enough people voice complaint, it is possible it will be fixed. And simply because something has not been fixed and/or at least recognized in a timely manner does not mean that is was not mistake. If that were so, then slavery should still be completely permissible. The world would still be taught as being flat, Communism an effective economic strategy! Tsk, tsk, Gwar, I thought better of you than to make such a weak and broad statement. I would like to hear a unit justified worse off than Ogryns are. I am really curious, I have not found one yet.

pariahs, ravenors, lictors, chaos spawn, chaos possessed

MasterSlowPoke wrote:pariahs, ravenors, lictors, chaos spawn, chaos possessed

Gargoyles too, but yeah, all of the above.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:pariahs, ravenors, lictors, chaos spawn, chaos possessed

I see no justification in such statements. Math still says those units at least specific areas where they are point effective, or at least not so terrible, and I have seen each one of them do damage on the board. Especially Pariahs, Ravenors, and Lictors. Each one is just situation specific, but in those situations, speed, stealth, etc, they at least can make up for their points cost, or become a reasonable enough distraction to affect the battle. Ogryns, if you simply straight out ignore them, are on hundred percent point-pit. You do more damage ignoring Ogryns than you do attacking them, and even as a diversion they are still easily swept aside with a pitiful 5+ armor save.

Badrukk.

See, and as a Guard player, I don't find Ogryns overpriced at all for what they do. I run two squads of 3, and use them as a defensive speed bump. My main opponent is a Space Marine player though, and whatever comes out of his drop-pod is hit by a decent amount of Ripper Gun shots, then ripped apart in Close combat. Might just be my luck, but my Ogryns have always been a staple in my list, and I always have the points for them.

"I see no justifications in such statements"???

Do you speak another language...like english 'coz me mom didn't teach me Dictionaryish...sorry!

also ogryns are not overpriced(TTEEREEH-TEEHRETETAH!HERE COMES THE JUSTIFICATION!)because my ork nob thugs(mercenery ogryns if you wish)sreen my infantry from evil bolterfire or my tanks from evil meltagun fire, and then squish all survovors under their 350 pound ass. no their not overpriced, the bone 'ead only lacks a powerfist, thats all.

the_emperors_renegade wrote:"I see no justifications in such statements"???

Do you speak another language...like english 'coz me mom didn't teach me Dictionaryish...sorry!

also ogryns are not overpriced(TTEEREEH-TEEHRETETAH!HERE COMES THE JUSTIFICATION!)because my ork nob thugs(mercenery ogryns if you wish)sreen my infantry from evil bolterfire or my tanks from evil meltagun fire, and then squish all survovors under their 350 pound ass. no their not overpriced, the bone 'ead only lacks a powerfist, thats all.

So the fact that a few squads of Guardsmen or even conscripts are just as effective bullet shields and S3 swamping, twice as flexible in use, but half the cost means nothing? As I have said, Ogryns have a job, they just are not worth their price to do it. I am not saying this without having tried. They are only good at sucking up wounds, but at 40pts per model for 3 wounds, when I can get 8 wounds for the same price in Guardsmen, 10 with conscripts.... math hammer that and Guardsmen are far more effective meat shields even if they don't fire. Heck, Guardsmen even have better leadership and wargear options!

Two squads of Ogryns, one of 5 and one of 6, Yarrick & two chimera's. Pretty beefy scary assault force. 755pts.

What can beat this squad (sadly plenty of things)? So yeah but still, it doesn't mean their weak or non-viable.. there are easier smaller options.

Also.. I do like the idea of 280pts worth of Ogryns acting as meat-shields but it would definitely need a regimental standard nearby lest they fail thier LD8 roll and flee!

So let me get this right. IG have a very close knit theme. They're a shooty army. Armed with just the humble lasgun and lightweight armor, they are the fighting force of ordinary mankind. The "underdogs". This is what they do. Oh, but there happens to be these subhuman monsters that completely break apart with what the army's theme is. They happen to be a little overpriced because they're not standard issue and represent being a smaller commodity in the universe. Maybe a little impractical or rare to be freely throwing around. So what you're saying is that a unit that breaks theme, is +1BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 W more than a 20 pt Nob, has stubborn, AND an assault 3 gun (as opposed to a pistol), is unreasonable for 40 points? Sure, and Yarrick should be S10 T10 cause he stood up to Ghazghkull, Ultramarines should autowin every fight, and the Eldar should be able to out psyker Space Wolves. Protip: If you want people to take your gripe seriously, maybe you should bust out some of this math you keep claiming you ran. All the numbers I list above point toward a reasonable unit.

Eldar have one weapons that fires over 36" range. It's only a S8, and it's terribly expensive for what you're getting (bright lance). You either get cheap stuff that follows your army theme, or you get expensive stuff that breaks theme. If you want an all Ogryn army, you should play Orks.

The only reasons why I don't use them (Ogryns) is the lack of powerfist/power weapons and the fact that I don't want to pay $$$$ for metal figures.

daedalus wrote:So let me get this right. IG have a very close knit theme. They're a shooty army. Armed with just the humble lasgun and lightweight armor, they are the fighting force of ordinary mankind. The "underdogs". This is what they do. Oh, but there happens to be these subhuman monsters that completely break apart with what the army's theme is. They happen to be a little overpriced because they're not standard issue and represent being a smaller commodity in the universe. Maybe a little impractical or rare to be freely throwing around. So what you're saying is that a unit that breaks theme, is +1BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 W more than a 20 pt Nob, has stubborn, AND an assault 3 gun (as opposed to a pistol), is unreasonable for 40 points? Sure, and Yarrick should be S10 T10 cause he stood up to Ghazghkull, Ultramarines should autowin every fight, and the Eldar should be able to out psyker Space Wolves. Protip: If you want people to take your gripe seriously, maybe you should bust out some of this math you keep claiming you ran. All the numbers I list above point toward a reasonable unit.

Eldar have one weapons that fires over 36" range. It's only a S8, and it's terribly expensive for what you're getting (bright lance). You either get cheap stuff that follows your army theme, or you get expensive stuff that breaks theme. If you want an all Ogryn army, you should play Orks.

The only reasons why I don't use them (Ogryns) is the lack of powerfist/power weapons and the fact that I don't want to pay $$$$ for metal figures.

Its more of a case of what they cant have compared to what they already come with.

Razerous wrote:Its more of a case of what they cant have compared to what they already come with.

But that's the direction that 40k is heading (not that I'm a fan of it). Going away are they days of being able to choose what wargear to slap on your characters from the armory, leading to such ridiculous situations as Sergeants always having worse weapons than Guardsmen. "Wow, you're good at your job! Have a promotion! In fact, you're SO good at your job, we're taking your rifle away. Have fun with this sidearm."

Should they have upgrades? Hell yeah. They should be able to get power fists, power weapons, maybe a chainfist. Should they pay dearly for them? Yes. Should their base cost be reduced? Probably not.

Skinnattittar wrote:It is not a question of whether or not they do a job, it is whether or not they do a job worth their points cost, and being pointed the same as a Terminator.... well which would you rather ever have? Period. In any situation for their points cost?

This pretty much sums it up for me.

For fun I looked up the stats over the years (for the books I possess) for the humble Ogryn and I shall share for your viewing pleasure:

3rd Edition
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv (pts)
4 3 5 4 3 3 2 8 5+ (30)
Ripper Gun 12" S4 AP6 Assault 2
(can replace ripper gun with +1S CCW)

3rd Edition Update
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv (pts)
4 3 5(6) 4 3 3 2 8 5+ (25)
4 3 5(6) 4 3 3 3 9 5+ (35) [Bone 'Ead]
Ripper Gun 12" S4 AP6 Assault 2 (adds +1 to S in CC)
Bone 'Ead has access to the armoury (non officer items)

My guess at their theoretical stats in the near future
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv (pts)
4 3 5 5 3 2 3 6 5+ (40)
4 3 5 5 3 2 4 7 5+ (50) [Bone 'Ead]
Ripper Gun 12" S5 AP- Assault 3
Stubborn (oh boy! I get to test on Ld 7 no matter what. Be still my beating heart...)
Furious Charge (S6 is nice, but I3 leaves a lot to be desired. And that's IF they charge...)

I think I'd like to try them over a few games using 3rd vs 5th stats and see how they compare. There are obviously pros and cons but I'm not experienced enough to just look at the statlines and predict their potential cost/value ratio.

DoW

Skinnattittar wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I think you PMed me by accident. I just got this in my inbox:

Please justify your assertion that Ogryns are not overpriced.

I didn't say they weren't overpriced, just not horribly so. 35 points would have been fair.

I I meant to PM you that. If you are going to make a statement contrary to a given, you have to justify it, even if I didn't justify mine initially.

This is a big problem, actually. So I will break this down, even if it is off topic.

When someone makes a statement without making a justification, there are two general reasons why they did not make a justification. Either they believe this is an ambient known (i.e. everyone knows this to be true) for example, if I were to say "The world is a sphere." Or, they are just trying to get attention/cause trouble. Now one has to assume one or the other if they wish to engage in a discussion to the contrary. So you can assume they are arrogant/idiotic (in the same way a young child just makes a statement without thought or knowledge) and simply say "nuh-uh!" or some such, and hope that is the end of it (which it won't and is just as childish), or you can assume that they are assuming it is common knowledge.

Two options now exist. You can assume that as far as they know their statement is true, and you can put forward your reasons as to why they are wrong and/or your thoughts on the matter, or you can ask them to justify their statement. Simply saying "you are wrong" is neither of those options and is not very helpful. If I were to reply in kind, we would be throwing "nuh-uh" and "uh-huhs" back and forth until the Star Child is born and leads humanity to a new golden age of union and purges the galaxy of lesser kinds. In such an event, both of our parties would probably be included among those removed for being so idiotic and insane.

You start a thread based on a post in another thread, and then when someone states their opinion, YOU PRIVATELY PM THEM ASKING THEM TO VALIDATE IT?

Validate it to YOU, personally, rather than just replying in a forum.

I think that's a bit out of order. If you have a problem with someone's ON topic comment in a forum, you quote and refute it, you don't send private messages....

They still pretty much blow and there are so many other good options in the codex I'm curious why you give a damn about Ogryns. Take GH if you want a CC squad.

They cost that much because GW said so. So just like mommy and daddy say: "because I said so!" it applies to GW.

Take some GKT at 43 points a model or how about just PAGK for 25 points and save time on the suck.

Okay, let us compare five Ogryns to equal value of FORTY Guardsmen (assume in the standard ten man squad) in hand-to-hand with Space Marines and their equivalents.

Ogryn/Guardsmen
Attacks
15/48
Hit
7.5/24
Wound
5/8
Killed
1.6r/2.6r

So the Guardsmen kill more compared to Ogryns. If they are assaulting you get bonuses. That ends up like this, even taking into account their +1 Strength for Furious Charge:
Ogryns/Guardsmen
2.7r/5.1r

Guardsmen still make uncomfortably close to double the kills. So let us observe their meatshield abilities versus Bolters, twenty shots.

Ogryn/Guardsmen
4.4r/8.8r

Ooh, ow, Guardsmen bit it there, twice as many wounds. But how many points is that?

O/G
59.259/44.4r

Well, Ogryns still lost out there, but not by much. We really should consider what happened after they are shot up then assault. Since both only have I3 they attack second, so number of Marine Casualties are... Math hammer go!:
O/G
1.54321/3.2181

Oof, Ogryns lost by a lot there in the end. In the end Ogryns lost 88.8r points worth of models and the Guardsmen lost 74.074 points worth of models. So the points lost were pretty close, but the casualties inflicted were very different, almost twice as much. Not to mention the Guardsmen have a bit more flexibility in use, since they are troops they can hold objectives, and since no-one ever complains about the Guard not having enough Troops slots to fill, they free up an important Elites choice for something more useful.

I didn't post this before, I was wrong for not doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArbitorIan wrote:You start a thread based on a post in another thread, and then when someone states their opinion, YOU PRIVATELY PM THEM ASKING THEM TO VALIDATE IT?
Validate it to YOU, personally, rather than just replying in a forum.
I think that's a bit out of order. If you have a problem with someone's ON topic comment in a forum, you quote and refute it, you don't send private messages....

I will do whatever I please over PMs and then ask you to kindly keep your twitty comments to yourself (yes, this is civil, if you were to pull something like this in real life, I would probably have harsher words. No need to yell at someone for kindly asking another person to elaborate on their opinion). If he wants to bring it onto the thread, he is more than welcome to PM me back to address it over the thread. I don't know what other thread you are talking about, this is the thread I started for this topic with no prior knowledge of any RECENT similar threads. I thought it was pretty much common knowledge that Ogryns were nigh worthless. You can't take them for fluff's sake because they are too expensive for their usefulness, they will be a major hindrance to the rest of your list. You can't take them to fill a niche because they don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:

daedalus wrote:So let me get this right. IG have a very close knit theme. They're a shooty army. Armed with just the humble lasgun and lightweight armor, they are the fighting force of ordinary mankind. The "underdogs". This is what they do. Oh, but there happens to be these subhuman monsters that completely break apart with what the army's theme is. They happen to be a little overpriced because they're not standard issue and represent being a smaller commodity in the universe. Maybe a little impractical or rare to be freely throwing around. So what you're saying is that a unit that breaks theme, is +1BS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 W more than a 20 pt Nob, has stubborn, AND an assault 3 gun (as opposed to a pistol), is unreasonable for 40 points? Sure, and Yarrick should be S10 T10 cause he stood up to Ghazghkull, Ultramarines should autowin every fight, and the Eldar should be able to out psyker Space Wolves. Protip: If you want people to take your gripe seriously, maybe you should bust out some of this math you keep claiming you ran. All the numbers I list above point toward a reasonable unit.
Eldar have one weapons that fires over 36" range. It's only a S8, and it's terribly expensive for what you're getting (bright lance). You either get cheap stuff that follows your army theme, or you get expensive stuff that breaks theme. If you want an all Ogryn army, you should play Orks.
The only reasons why I don't use them (Ogryns) is the lack of powerfist/power weapons and the fact that I don't want to pay $$$$ for metal figures.

Its more of a case of what they cant have compared to what they already come with.

Actually it is more of a case of Ogryns being loved in the fluff but horribly neglected on the table. Ogryns are mentioned in just about every Imperial Guard book I have ever read. They are usually refered to affectionately and with respect. I would LOVE to have these fun zany guys running around on the table making trouble, and to build a list supporting them (Ogryns and Ogryn Handlers via Commissar Lord HQ and Veterans for Troops with supporting Chimera's for transport and Russes for Heavy Support). But the way they are that is completely impractical and I would basically be playing a list that is asking to be pulled apart and destroyed by turn two, three if they are lucky.

Don't play them if you don't like 'em man.simple as that...