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So I usually use Tyranids for most of my games and I barely ever thought I would be apprehensive about using them. Unfortunately I heard the new Codex is coming out sooner than I thought, and put a halt to my Nid collection (so far a measly 1200 pts) so that I could look forward to modeling my army around the new codex.

While I wait, I figured it would be best to keep playing, perhaps with a test army. In my group of friends we allow people to proxy a list and just (for example) use bases to represent their army instead of going out to GW and spending money on an army you won't like. After a long contest between Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space marines, the CSM won me over and I bought their codex.

The games I play are purely for fun and to test out exotic, perhaps stupidly expensive units. My friends are all just in it to have fun.

So far I've assembled 1143 points worth of very expensive CSM to play with in my next game, so it should be fun. This time around I really wanted to base the army mostly on Tzeentch (Mostly because I love the Invulnerable Sv. and the opponents I mainly play are Tau - Darn AP1 weapons) and toss some Plague Marines in for fun.

So far, this is what I have:

HQ

Daemon Prince - 200 pts
Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and Bolt of Change

Ahriman, Exile of A Thousand Sons (I actually had a hard time switching Typhus for this dude, but I can't help loving Psychic Powers) - 250 points
(I'll assume you know what he has equipped as standard)

Troops

8 Thousand Sons & Aspiring Sorceror - 299 pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt Pistol, Warp Time, Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs

8 Plague Marines (1 Flamer, 6 Normal, One Champion) & Champion - 209 pts
Champ: Melta Bombs, Bolter

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Heavy Support

Obliterator Cult with Two Obliterators - 150 pts

All up, this list is simply meant to get the Psykers and Plague Marines up to face the Tau while they end up pre-occupied with the Daemon Prince in turn two and soon have to face Deep-striking Obliterators.

Anyway, I just want some Comments and Criticism on this, and perhaps what to add to make this list an efficient and expensive 1200 - 1500 pt list.

Daemon Prince: check your points again, you are off.
I Suggest Wind of Chaos instead of bolt.

Ahriman: /shrug. Just don’t forget his FAQ.

TS: Warp time is kinda meh on them.
Plague marines: always get the second special weapon. No fist? Then no champ.

Oblits look ok.

Sanctjud wrote:Daemon Prince: check your points again, you are off.
I Suggest Wind of Chaos instead of bolt.

Ahriman: /shrug. Just don’t forget his FAQ.

TS: Warp time is kinda meh on them.
Plague marines: always get the second special weapon. No fist? Then no champ.

Oblits look ok.

Thank you for the advice and stuff
Though my Daemon Prince's points are right, unless I've managed to score an older codex - Daemon is base 110, wings are 20, Mark of Tzeentch is 20, Winds of Chaos and Warptime are 55 points together = 205

So my game has been elevated to 1500 points and is being held in two days' time.

I've modified my list to fit:

HQ

Daemon Prince - 205 pts
Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and Winds of Chaos

Ahriman, Exile of A Thousand Sons (I actually had a hard time switching Typhus for this dude, but I can't help loving Psychic Powers) - 250 points
(I'll assume you know what he has equipped as standard)

Elites

3 Chaos Terminators - 155 pts
Tzeentch Icon, Power Fists

Troops

4 Thousand Sons & Aspiring Sorceror - 207 pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt Pistol, Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs

8 Plague Marines (1 Flamer, 6 Normal, One Champion) & Champion - 234 pts
Champ: Melta Bombs, Power Fist

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Heavy Support

Obliterator Cult with Three Obliterators - 225 pts

Chaos Vindicator - 125 pts

What do you think of this list?

HQ

Daemon Prince - 205 pts
Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and Winds of Chaos

Ahriman, Exile of A Thousand Sons (I actually had a hard time switching Typhus for this dude, but I can't help loving Psychic Powers) - 250 points
(I'll assume you know what he has equipped as standard)

Cool. Personally I would ditch Winds of Chaos. I think the risk is too great that you will wipe out the models in assaultrange in the squad you want to assault. That would leave your Prince stranded waiting to be shot to pieces. I like my Prince more in CC then out of it. With BoC being 24" range Id actually prefer that... YMMV

Elites

3 Chaos Terminators - 155 pts
Tzeentch Icon, Power Fists

Tzeentch Icon is too expensive for only 3 Terminators. With three Terminators Id use 2xCombiMelta, Heavy Flamer, Chainfist for 120 points.

Troops

4 Thousand Sons & Aspiring Sorceror - 207 pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt Pistol, Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs

8 Plague Marines (1 Flamer, 6 Normal, One Champion) & Champion - 234 pts
Champ: Melta Bombs, Power Fist

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

First squad is too expensive for a 5 man squad. Id use it at 8 1kSons + Sorcerer minimum.

7 Plaguebearers with 2 melta and Champ with fist is the norm (and fits the fluff) and is better than this setup.

Why the Meltabombs?

Heavy Support

Obliterator Cult with Three Obliterators - 225 pts

Chaos Vindicator - 125 pts

OK.

Personally I think especially Ahriman is a liability at 1500points and in your list. He's too expensive. You need more numbers.

Good luck with the list.

Cilithan

@SDasher:
You have the points right in your second post, but not the first post.

______________-

205's are decent.
Arhiman hellz no...not even for giggles.
Termies: too many points in the icon just for 3 guys…I think 3 combi-weapons are a must on a squad like that.
Min sized TS are bad IMO, as a bolt of change platform even worse ( in terms of points usage and effectivness).

Plague marines: always max the number of special weapons.

Oblits are nice.
Vindi is lonely and without possession.

As to Dp killing too much stuff, that’s what it is there for.
You don’t have to use it, it’s a great option for clearing troops if you have too. Remember, everything is expendable if it allows you to win.
If you can kill a whole tac squad or prob. make them runaway off an obj, entirely worth it.

It’s 1500, if he’s in a position to blenderize a full squad, it’s well worth it and a big event.

Cilithan wrote:

HQ

Daemon Prince - 205 pts
Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and Winds of Chaos

Ahriman, Exile of A Thousand Sons (I actually had a hard time switching Typhus for this dude, but I can't help loving Psychic Powers) - 250 points
(I'll assume you know what he has equipped as standard)

Cool. Personally I would ditch Winds of Chaos. I think the risk is too great that you will wipe out the models in assaultrange in the squad you want to assault. That would leave your Prince stranded waiting to be shot to pieces. I like my Prince more in CC then out of it. With BoC being 24" range Id actually prefer that... YMMV

Elites

3 Chaos Terminators - 155 pts
Tzeentch Icon, Power Fists

Tzeentch Icon is too expensive for only 3 Terminators. With three Terminators Id use 2xCombiMelta, Heavy Flamer, Chainfist for 120 points.

Troops

4 Thousand Sons & Aspiring Sorceror - 207 pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt Pistol, Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs

8 Plague Marines (1 Flamer, 6 Normal, One Champion) & Champion - 234 pts
Champ: Melta Bombs, Power Fist

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

First squad is too expensive for a 5 man squad. Id use it at 8 1kSons + Sorcerer minimum.

7 Plaguebearers with 2 melta and Champ with fist is the norm (and fits the fluff) and is better than this setup.

Why the Meltabombs?

Heavy Support

Obliterator Cult with Three Obliterators - 225 pts

Chaos Vindicator - 125 pts

OK.

Personally I think especially Ahriman is a liability at 1500points and in your list. He's too expensive. You need more numbers.

Good luck with the list.

Cilithan

Thanks for the critique/help - it really does make me feel like I might stand a chance in my 4th game ever

The Daemon Prince being a Psyker really was just a 'Because I could' upgrade. I see now that even at 1500 points 30-40 points can make a difference. I'll go on and take Bolt of change, for likely taking out the 3-strong Broadside units I just know will be involved in this. Love it for the AP1 attack + instant death for most Tau; this is the reason I really wanted to take Ahriman to quickly use 3 BoT as soon as I get in range and remove that troublesome unit before they really become a problem, as they have with my Nids.

Ahriman is expensive, yes, but I see too much potential for him to take him out. Thanks for the Terminator tip though; I realise suddenly that it's way too expensive. I'll keep the Termies, dump the mark, and add the upgrades you suggested.... maybe. I'm very fresh into the different weapons and I'll read up on them a bit.

As for the 1kSons, I'll see if a unit of 8 fits into my list.

Melta bombs are for emergency tank-busting or getting rid of units quickly.

I'll put up a revised list when I make some adjustments.

You can't use 3 bolt of change on Arihman.
It's in the Chaos FAQ.

So the most you can get in the HQ is a bolt from a DP and a bolt from Arhiman.
If the broadsides are not in cover and have no shield drones they deserve to be instant deathed....otherwise, Bolt of Change is not something he's worried about.

I just realised that, eheh. Just for notice I removed Ahriman and I'm thinking about loading Lucius the Eternal into the spare HQ spot. What do you think?

Use 2 Tzeentch Princes with Wings, MoT and WT (only one power) for your HQ choises. Let his Broadsides focus on those and in the mean time drive the rest of your army up to his doorsteps.

Deepstriking Termicides with IoCG to summon daemonpacks of of is also an idea (less competative per se, but may be fun to try).

Cilithan

Wait, just looked at the FAQ a little more closely:



Does this mean Ahriman can use 3 Bolts of Change?

Edit:

Never mind, I love Cilithan's idea.

It actually says the opposite.

You CAN warptime 3 times.
You CAN gift of chaos 3 times.
Both of those are not shooting attacks.

You MAY shoot 3 different power, but not the same.

You can NOT shoot Bolt three times.
You can NOT shoot doombolt three times.
You can NOT shoot wind three times.

You CAN shoot Bolt, doombolt, and wind.
You can do any combination as long as shooting attacks are not duplicated.

________________

As for DP's... I think it's a bad idea to think the Tau player's target priorities are poor in skill.
Pulse Rifles are decent at taking out Tzeentch Daemon Princes, he'd leave the railguns for the vehicles.

Well, thanks for the tips. I'll think about possible lists over night and post a list soon.

(I'm possessing the Vindi as suggested. I realise that even if it scatters, the difference is only an inch more in scatter)

The Tau player though is even more inexperienced than myself and has only played two games (600 pts and 750) so jumping from such a small game to a large game might disorient her and myself. Like I said, this isn't an intense competition, we just wanna have fun.

You just love picking useless special characters, eh? First Ahriman, then Lucius?

Karn and Abaddon have some worth, even Typhus with his 4+, often re-rolled, daemon force weapon - but no eternal warrior kind of screws him.

Best thing about Lucius is his Doomsiren, which you can get on a squad of 5 NM for cheaper, and it's a scoring unit, and arguably better in close combat, depending on what you're fighting.

Ah, well thank you Spellbound for telling me what I picked was useless |:

Meanwhile I'm compiling a list without them, as I thought I'd said.

2x Daemon Prince w/ MoT, Wings and Warp Time for HQ sounds like it will get the Tau player into some sort of panic; I know from experience she dislikes multi-wound creatures.

Forgot to mention that the Game Mode will be Annihilation, 1500 points.

SDasher wrote:
HQ

Daemon Prince - 200 pts
Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and Bolt of Change

Ahriman, Exile of A Thousand Sons (I actually had a hard time switching Typhus for this dude, but I can't help loving Psychic Powers) - 250 points
(I'll assume you know what he has equipped as standard)

Troops

8 Thousand Sons & Aspiring Sorceror - 299 pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Bolt Pistol, Warp Time, Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs

8 Plague Marines (1 Flamer, 6 Normal, One Champion) & Champion - 209 pts
Champ: Melta Bombs, Bolter

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Chaos Rhino (Dedicated Transport) - 35 pts

Heavy Support

Obliterator Cult with Two Obliterators - 150 pts

All up, this list is simply meant to get the Psykers and Plague Marines up to face the Tau while they end up pre-occupied with the Daemon Prince in turn two and soon have to face Deep-striking Obliterators.

Anyway, I just want some Comments and Criticism on this, and perhaps what to add to make this list an efficient and expensive 1200 - 1500 pt list.

I don't think you need bolt of change on the daemon prince, it can wreck vehicles any way and that melta shot is what its meant for. Perhaps doombolt if you want ranged fire? Does have ap3 and with warptime you re-roll to hit and to wound

I cannot comment on Ahirman, but does seem expensive, but psychics usually are.

Rest seems ok to me, though 2 HQ's in a 1,500 list and one costs 200+ points I think needs re-thinking on.

I'll warn anyone away from chaos special characters, unless they have "I want to lose" in their description of their list. Sorry but it's true.

Tau have no trouble downing daemon princes, but what you really want are his broadsides to shoot them. Getting a 5+ save against their shots and being able to soak four of them through that really wastes their firepower. That being said, the rest of your list, and the princes, need to concentrate on mowing down firewarriors and such as fast as possible. The combination of warp time and wind of chaos is brutal, and I highly recommend it.

Facing deepstriking obliterators isn't something the tau have trouble with, unfortunately. Railguns make short work of them, plasma rifles slightly less so. Make sure you eliminate a few of the threats to them before they land, or they won't accomplish much.

You mentioned his broadsides, but I don't recall you saying much else about his force - does he go mechanized? Lots of devilfish? That changes a lot in terms of what you need to bring.

Okay, thank you everyone for the advice and criticism.

The List I'll be facing is one Devilfish strong, one Hammerhead, maybe a Sky Ray, One Commander perhaps with Bodyguard, no battlesuits, lots of Fire warriors and two units of Pathfinders, 3 Broadsides, and um... I wouldn't know what else she has seeing as that was basically her 1k point army list minus the Sky Ray.

Here's my list for tomorrow afternoon:

HQ

Daemon Prince - 175
Wings, MoT, Warp Time

Daemon Prince - 175
Wings, MoT, Warp Time

Troops

8 Thousand Sons with Aspiring Sorcerer - 304
MoT, Warp Time, Winds of Chaos, Melta Bombs

8 Plague Marines with Champion - 253
2 Meltas, 1 Flamer, 4 normal // Champ: Melta Bombs, Powerfist

Chaos Rhino - 35

Chaos Rhino - 35

Elites

4 Terminators - 145
3 Combi-Meltas and 1 Chainfist

Heavy Support

Obliterator Cult with 3 Obliterators - 225

Vindicator - 125
Possessed.

Total should be 1,472. If it isn't and anyone can bother adding it up for me, then I'd be grateful for the heads up, I don't want to have more than 1500.

Vindicator with possessed is 145 points.

Ah, thanks for that. The list comes to 1492, then.

All gravy then

DPs look ok, I’m not one for MoT…limited usage.
Cover saves are a good thing, esp. if you have rhinos around.

TS sor: can’t have 2 powers. The Asp. Sorc has his own rules that override the MoT rules.

Plague marines, can onlyhave 2 special weapons.

Termies look ok.
Oblits and vindi are ok.
I feel you are short one more vehicle to do enough armor saturation.

I also think you are short changing yourself for not having more troops at the 1500 level. In addition, PMs + Dustbuckets….don’t like that combo. Makes target prioritizing easy for the opponent.

The second daemon prince isn't really required in a 1,500 list, your spending nearly 400 points on HQ models. That is nearly 1/3 of your entire force.

Unfortunately cult troops cost a lot. I'd be more willing to go for normal CSM with the marks really. Plaque Marines are just silly points each for feel no pain and T5.

Points are wrong on your vindicator, it's 125 plus 20 for possession totaling 145. but that's besides the point. I think that you don't have enough troops and that 2 HQs are too much.

Here's my suggestion for an alternate but similar list.

175: Demon Price with MoT and Warptime

210: 4 termis with Icon Of Tzeentch, 1 heavy flamer, 1 combi melta, 1 combi flamer, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist plus champion

236: 7 1000Sons + 1 Sorcerer, doombolt and meltabombs
35: Rhino

236: 7 1000Sons + 1 Sorcerer, doombolt and meltabombs
35: Rhino

231: 7 Plague Marines, 2 plasma guns, champ w/ powerfist

150: 2 Obliterators

160: Vindicator w/ possession and Havoc Launcher

Thank you for all the responses and critiques for the match - unfortunately something unexpected came up and the game has been postponed until tomorrow.

As for list suggestions, I have dumped my Thousand Sons and Plague Marines for Chaos Space Marines and a Predator for supporting fire. Everything else in my list has been left the same except for the Terminators, which I took in my own direction.

Thank you again and I will post my Army List tomorrow in the battle reports section with the report. Photos would look ridiculous, especially with my Vindicator on order from GW and a substitute currently made out of lego, eheh.

Terminator champions are a waste of points.

So this ended up being my list for the game with Tau:

HQ

DP - 175
+MoT
+Wings
+Warp Time

DP - 175
+MoT
+Wings
+Warp Time

Elites

Chaos Terminators x 5 - 265
+2 Powerfists
+3 Chainfists
+Champion
+MoT

Troops

CSM x 8 - 145
+Aspiring Champion
+Melta Gun

CSM x 8 - 145
+Aspiring Champion
+Melta Gun

Chaos Rhino - DT - 35

Chaos Rhino - DT - 35

Heavy Support

Obliterators x 3 - 225

Chaos Vindicator - 145
+Possessed

Chaos Predator - 165
+TW Lascannon
+Lascannon Sponsons

Total: 1500

The game was good fun and you can read the battle report here.

Thanks everyone for the list advice - the Predator was a key component to the battle early on in the game.

Good report

If you like Tzeetch then why not spam sorcerers in land raiders turning opponents into spawns?!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
HQ- Sorc w/ Gift-- 130
HQ- Sorc w/ Gift-- 130

Elite- 3xTermi w/ 3xCombi Melta & Chain fist in LR-- 340
Elite- 3xTermi w/ 3xCombi Melta & Chain fist in LR-- 340

Troop- 4xTS & Asp. Sorc w/ Gift-- 182
Troop- 4xTS & Asp. Sorc w/ Gift-- 182

Heavy- LR-- 220
Heavy- LR-- 220

Total: 1744


Automatically Appended Next Post:
4 land raiders
4 chances of gift
6 combi melta termies
hellfire rounds

Oh, you don't really need 3 power fists and 2 chain fists on terminators. Nor terminator champions. The chain fists are same as pf but get 2D6 armour pen, use the pw's to strike first and follow up with nasty cf attacks. Terminator champs you pay 15 points for a extra attack - not worth it spend on other wargear, heavy flamer would be nice

Champions are wasted in the chaos marine units - you are paying 15 points for nothing, they give nothing to the unit nor have any wargear. A waste of time.

mercer wrote:Oh, you don't really need 3 power fists and 2 chain fists on terminators. Nor terminator champions. The chain fists are same as pf but get 2D6 armour pen, use the pw's to strike first and follow up with nasty cf attacks. Terminator champs you pay 15 points for a extra attack - not worth it spend on other wargear, heavy flamer would be nice

Champions are wasted in the chaos marine units - you are paying 15 points for nothing, they give nothing to the unit nor have any wargear. A waste of time.

It costs 10 pts to upgrade a terminator to a champ for an extra attack

Hidden fists are one of the best thing about CSM troops, aside from two special weapons. of course you are right when you say you are paying a premium for the fists: 15 pts Asp. Champ upgade and 25 for the Fist.