Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've only very recently got in Eldar, and made my first army around a fully mech fast attack theme.

2000 points Eldar

HQ
1x Eldrad 210 points

Troops
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (PW, shield, Bladestorm) 162 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (PW, shield, Bladestorm) 162 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (PW, shield, Bladestorm) 162 points

Elites
5x Fire Dragons, Exarch(Pike, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters) 120 points 120 points

Heavy Support
1x Wave Serpant (SL, Shrik. C, Spirit Stones) 135 pt
1x Wave Serpant (SL, Shrik. C, Spirit Stones) 135 pt
1x Wave Serpant (BL, Shrik. C, Spirit Stones) 155 pt
Total: 425
-(so far 1463 pts)-
1x Falcon (S.Eng, SL, Spr. S, Vector Eng., Holo-S.) 210 pts

Fast Attack
5x Shining Spears, Exarch (Exarch,Star Lance,Skilled R.,Withdraw) 237 points
1x Autarch Jetbike 135 points

1x Vyper (Shurik. Cannon) 50 pts

Free: 0 points

I played 3 games with it and I've lost them ALL.

Game 1 was against Armor heavy Imperial Guard. My Falcon got Basilisk shotted early in turn 2 and my Fire Dragons had to walk = dead. No AT = dead. I was trying to charge his Tanks with my Spears but they got shot up.

Second Game was against Chaos Space Marines. His Obliteraters killed my 2 of my Serpant from long range and his Terminators/MEQ got into CC and sliced me up. My spears charged his MEQs and did very well and killed most of them but he had 2 of the 3 objectives so I lost. His Obliterators were ridiculous, I also couldn't kill his Land Raider.

Last game was against Space Marines and while I went toe to toe with him, his MEQs were just too durable and I lost due to bad strategy as well.

Is this list really that bad? I'm really trying to take advantage of one of our best units which is Dire Avengers and my favorite unit Shining Spears.

My question really is would you ever play this list? if not, why? Please HELP

My list uses very similar units of troops, and I think it's perfectly doable, but I've had some problems against armies full of heavy armour and mass MEQs. This could be quite an interesting discussion about how eldar work against such opponents.

First off, the bad decisions in your list (not to sound harsh, just minor things IMHO). PW/SS on a dire avenger exarch is a waste of points. the unit still won't win any combats, and against serious opponents it will still probably break first turn. Give each exarch twin catapults, and you save 30 points while increasing the squads' firepower significantly.
Vypers just aren't that good. I have two, I've tried to use them well, but against serious opponents it won't work. At BS3 and as fragile as a vehicle can get, they are just too expensive compared to the damage they can do.
Falcons are probably inferior to wave serpents, and if you're going to use star engines, do so on a cheap 100 point wave serpent, not a falcon fitted out with multiple guns; if it's moving 36" it can't use the guns at all.

For vehicle loadouts, I would advise a basic wave serpent with either bright lance, scatter laser or shuricannon. Certainly no underslung cannon, since it can only shoot if you move <6", and that makes you vulnerable to assault as well as being pretty useless for maneuvers. Lots of people swear by spirit stones, I think they're pants. Star engines are worth trying on transports with fire dragons. I personally run bare, 100-points serpents with just the shuricannons, but a better top gun is a perfectly good choice. Anyvun vith starcannons on their vehicles vill be shot, ja!

I wouldn't use falcons, but if you do, how about one shuricannon and holofields? Spirit stones might be good here, since holofields increases the chance of getting a 1. I still wouldn't use them though.

well for one i suggest that your dire avenger exarch has dual shurken catapults.
wave sperpents arnt heavy support they dedicated transport meaning you can add fire prisms or what ever
either make another HQ or exchange your eldrad for a farseer with stones a spear doom, fortune or guide and runes of whitnessing runes of warding(optional)
stick your fire dragons in a falcon or wave serpent
if you want vypers run atleast 3 then they wollnt be as easy kill points
wave serpents fire prisms and fire dragons best friend againts anti tank
shining spears never though about using but i suggest keeping them in reserves for the sake of taking out anything close to you

those are my cents on what you have or need to get.

The fire dragons are great but overloaded. I would scrap tank hunters and/or crack shot. Many people favour just fire dragons, the exarch upgrade considered inefficient: 12 point upgrade, compared to 16 points for anohter fire dragon.

If you scrap the vyper, some upgrades all around, and change the falcon to a wave serpent, you'd have about 230 points spare. What would you like to add? Got to go now, will post later about tactics, my experience with avengers and dragons, etc. How are you using the shining spears, and what does the autarch carry?

Stick with the army, it's great fun to play, hopefully we can all improve our tactics against those IG/SM/Chaos bastards!

I understand that many people don't use the Falcon now because apparently they got downgraded in 5th edition.

I never played in 4th so if anyone can explain how they raped in 4th and now suck in 5th I would appreciate it.

Furthermore, if I DO take out the Falcon my question is how to transport my Fire Dragons. Do I take yet ANOTHER Wave Serpant. I feel a Falcon is a better transport for Fire Dragons because of the Holo-fields.

About Dire Avengers I heard on the forums that bladestorm (2x shots) then charging immediately after with the PW Exarch is a good call. Also the DD Exarch with the Power Sword simply looks bad ass.

Fire Dragos in a Falcon is fine. However, when you bring the Dragons close to the enemy you might face melta gun fire. Wave Serpents are more durable vs melta than a Falcon. Another thing to consider is that you might compromise the firepower of the Falcon whenever you need to bring those Dragons somewhere fast.

But doesn't Falcon's have Holo-shields? Also I thought Wave Serpents and Falcons were exactly the same except for the weapons and Holo-shields.

Lastly, does a Eldar List need Fire Prisms to be competitive?

1: If you pay 35 points (falcons need them IMO)
2: WS have a bigger capacity and the energy field special rule (only 1 d6, str 8 max)
3: No though they certainly help. 2+ or none though. Falcons can do more mixed jobs

Basically, in 4th edition skimmers could only be glanced while moving >6". A Fast Skimmer could move up to 12" while firing one main weapon and all S6 or less weapons. So, falcons (and other tanks, but falcons benefitted the most) could move a 'magic distance' of 6-12", getting much tougher and firing shuricannons/scatterlasers at maximum efficiency.

The real beauty is that this merges with the holofields upgrades. You needed a 6 to destroy a vehicle on a glancing hit, and holofields made that a 1/36 chance. By giving the falcon vectored engines and spirit stones as well, you made the other results not so great. Basically, a falcon with all upgrades moving >6" was tougher than a landraider, and could transport fire dragons or harlequins (who were a lot better then since rending was so great)

Anyway.

Twin catapults are flat-out better than the other weapons for a DA exarch. You get out of your transport after moving, you can't assault anyway. You should get out, fire or bladestorm, and be prepared to fire again or climb back in next turn. The knack isn't charging into combat (although this can be done if you've lost your transport or need to brush remnants off an objective) it's disembarking far away enough that you can't be charged next turn, so you can move to stay out of combat altogether.

Falcons don't suck per se (they're not vypers or anything) but as a transport wave serpents are better, more efficient for their points. I have no experience using fire prisms, but overall I think that wave serpents are better transports than falcons, and fire prisms are better gunships. The thing about holofields is that the dragons just need to get out, shoot a land raider or a leman russ (ideally a leman russ squadron, mmmmm) and then die. Their transport doesn't need to last forever, it just needs to get them there.

I took several of your recommendations. Updated list!

Troops
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (PW, Shield, Bladestorm) 177 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (Duel C., Bladestorm) 137 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (Duel C., Bladestorm) 137 points
Total: 451
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (Bright Lance , Spirit Stones) 145 pt
Total: 475
Elites
9x Howling Banshee (Exarch, War Shout, Acrobatic, Mirror S.) 176 points

6x Fire Dragons, Exarch(Pike, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters) 120 points
1x Falcon (Bright Lance, Spirit S.) 155 pts
Total: 451
Fast Attack
5x Shining Spears, (Exarch,Star Lance,Skilled R.,Withdraw) 237 points
1x Autarch Jetbike 140 points
Total: 392
Heavy Support
2x Fire Prism Total: 230

1999 points

Only minor quibbles: Mirrorswords are almost always worse than an executioner for a banshee exarch.

I'm assuming you've got the model for the falcon already, but if you're using it I suggest a cheaper weapon upgrade, since if it moves 12" to drop fire dragons then it can't fire two weapons. You could give it holofields and a shuricannon, instead of the brightlance, if you dropped the unecessary crack shot off the dragon exarch.

You may also want to drop star lance on the spear exarch, I tried a lot to make this squad less expensive in my army, and star lance is the one upgrade I consider innefficient. Maybe upgrade a wave serpent's guns with the spare points.

You could consider putting a 6-man avenger squad in the falcon, and putting the dragons in a serpent. As stated above, the wave serpent is better protected from melta weapons in the front line, while a holofielded falcon will survive well in the back field, sniping with its pulse laser and carrying a scoring unit.

I like the general list, though myself, I am weary of using Spears in an otherwise completely mounted/tank list.

Personally, I would not use the Brightlance on the Falcon; if you need another one, I would put one on a Serpent and leave the Falcon cheaper or give it the Missile Launcher.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Only minor quibbles: Mirrorswords are almost always worse than an executioner for a banshee exarch.

Mathematically, with Mirror Swords are more or less equal the Executioner vs. T3 and T4 targets, and even better with Doom (though it's not in his list). Executioner benefit more from the charge against T4 though.

If there was a Doom Seer in the list, Mirrorswords would probably be a better option, if the Banshee target is doomed.

DorianGray wrote:I took several of your recommendations. Updated list!

Troops
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (PW, Shield, Bladestorm) 177 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (Duel C., Bladestorm) 137 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (Duel C., Bladestorm) 137 points
Total: 451
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (Bright Lance , Spirit Stones) 145 pt
Total: 475
Elites
9x Howling Banshee (Exarch, War Shout, Acrobatic, Mirror S.) 176 points

6x Fire Dragons, Exarch(Pike, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters) 120 points
1x Falcon (Bright Lance, Spirit S.) 155 pts
Total: 451
Fast Attack
5x Shining Spears, (Exarch,Star Lance,Skilled R.,Withdraw) 237 points
1x Autarch Jetbike 140 points
Total: 392
Heavy Support
2x Fire Prism Total: 230

1999 points

Defend would compliment the power weapon avengers much better.

I don't rate Banshees really. They will get out the transport, rip a new one and they're gonners. 4+ and S3 isn't too good, they need fortune and doom to help them. Once they've assaulted and more than likely wiped out the unit they will get shot to pieces. Heavy bolters wounding on 2+, plenty of other ap4 weapons will take them apart. I have found Striking Scorpions to be better, might not have power weapons but have more attacks and better armour - they stay around longer.

You don't need the exarch on the Fire Dragons. With all those meltaguns tank hunters isn't needed, fire pike may have 242 range but you're in the transport which isn't open topped. I would drop the exarch for another fire dragon giving you 7 in total. Really you need two units of Fire Dragons as they are a throw away unit, once there job is done its hasta la vista for those guys.

DorianGray wrote:
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (PW, Shield, Bladestorm) 177 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (Duel C., Bladestorm) 137 points

1stgroup: 11 models - 162 points
2nd group: 11 model - 152 points?
At least the difference between groups should be 10 points as Dual Catapults is 5 and PW+Shield is 15?

Alright,

Huge dilemma for me. I can't afford a doom far seer without taking out either the Bright Lances on the wave serpents and/or taking out the Autarch on the Jetbike.

Troops
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (PW, Shield, Bladestorm, Defend) 177 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (Duel C., Bladestorm) 137 points
10x Dire Avengers, Exarch (Duel C., Bladestorm) 137 points
Total: 451
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (S. Cannon, Spirit Stones) 110 pt
1x Wave Serpant (Bright Lance, Spirit Stones) 145 pt
1x Wave Serpant (Bright Lance, Spirit Stones) 145 pt
Total: 510
Elites
8x Howling Banshee (Exarch, Acrobatic, Executioner) 155 points
6x Fire Dragons, Exarch (Pike, Crack Shot) 105 points
1x Falcon (EML, Spirit S., Holo-fields) 180 pts
Total: 426
Fast Attack
5x Shining Spears, (Exarch,Star Lance,Skilled R.,Withdraw) 237 points
1x Autarch Jetbike (Lance, Fusion Gun) 130 points
Total: 367
Heavy Support
2x Fire Prism Total: 230

Would anyone suggest I even need Howling Banshees in this list at all? I could just get 10x Pathfinders if I didn't have the cost of the extra Wave Serpent and the Banshees plus upgrade all my Wave Serpents to Bright Lances.

id suggest having a vanila autarch only needing him interms of reserves and then shave the exarch off the fire daragons and you should have just enof points for a doom far seer
and also you can probley change the assult exarch into another dual shurken catapult giving a couple more points maby having enof for runes of witnessing but i might be a little off
just check the upgrades that you gave some stuff and you should be able to have a farseer with doom and runes of whitnessing giving utter ownage to any one unit that is doomed being uterly more doomed from all the rerolls from and large shooting unit or even the howling banshees its just the matter of who you target

You've undercalculated the cost for dual catapult DA units by 15 points each, they should be 152.

I reiterate, agreeing with mercer, that the firedragons really don't need tank hunters.

I also reiterate, disagreeing with mercer this time, that the BEST way to use DAs is with twin catapults and baldestorm, PW/SS and defend are expensive upgrades, only work against some threats, and still won't save the fragile, non-fearless squad from a serious assault.

Since a farseer really would complement the banshees and avengers well, I say do take one over the autarch. I'm starting to find that the only way to use shining spears is very cautiously against isolated and vulnerable units, and in that role they don't need the character.

I'm sold on the duel c. idea for the DA. Thanks for all the input.

However I still want to know maybe I shouldn't include the Howling Banshees at all and just get a squad of 8 Pathfinders/Rangers.

It'll save me from getting the extra wave serpent and the Banshee models. However then my army will have absolutely no CC.

Pathfinders > Banshees?

Completely different purpose.

I'd still suggest using Banshees, since otherwise you say you have no CC element. Banshees would compliment your list better IMO.

IMO the best Dire Avenger build is the 177 point, got everything unit, with Shimmershield, Defend and Bladestorm.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
Vypers just aren't that good. I have two, I've tried to use them well, but against serious opponents it won't work. At BS3 and as fragile as a vehicle can get, they are just too expensive compared to the damage they can do.
Falcons are probably inferior to wave serpents, and if you're going to use star engines, do so on a cheap 100 point wave serpent, not a falcon fitted out with multiple guns; if it's moving 36" it can't use the guns at all.
I wouldn't use falcons, but if you do, how about one shuricannon and holofields? Spirit stones might be good here, since holofields increases the chance of getting a 1. I still wouldn't use them though.

A: Vypers are great filler units, adding something worth little points that they have to dedicate a heavy weapon to bring down...I'm content. Not sure why you aren't a big fan of them, but their speed and hitting power make them great 65-75 point units IMO.

Second...Falcons are amazing transports for units that can't have a Waveserpent dedicated, or for smaller kill teams like a FootSeers or Dragons.

Aside from this though, to the OP...I think you lack long range anti-tank, and that is what hurt you in the situation you listed. There are plenty of ways to add these elements in, and you know the list well enough it seems for me to not have to give you advice on that. :-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:You've undercalculated the cost for dual catapult DA units by 15 points each, they should be 152.

I reiterate, agreeing with mercer, that the firedragons really don't need tank hunters.

I also reiterate, disagreeing with mercer this time, that the BEST way to use DAs is with twin catapults and baldestorm, PW/SS and defend are expensive upgrades, only work against some threats, and still won't save the fragile, non-fearless squad from a serious assault.

Since a farseer really would complement the banshees and avengers well, I say do take one over the autarch. I'm starting to find that the only way to use shining spears is very cautiously against isolated and vulnerable units, and in that role they don't need the character.

I agree here that Fire Dragons do not need tank hunter(or a Firepike)

Agree with Mercer, disagree with I-bounty about the Dire Avengers. If you think 'only work against some threats' is the reason to not take the PW/SS combo on the DA Exarch, perhaps you aren't playing much in the current environment. I can think of only two lists out there that this combo can't be used(with Fortune as a buffer) to bottle up expensive CC units in other armies.

And lastly I agree with the Farseer comment. Farseers bring a lot of control to the battlefield, almost a must-have for competitive Eldar(if not).

Damn these dire avenger disagreements! I stick to my guns, or rather my twin shuriken catapults. I don't know what you mean, F. Faenyin, about the current environment, I can only speak from my own experience. I admit that I hadn't considered using fortune on the DAs, (it makes a 5+ a bit better than a normal 4+ save) and that seems like a good tactic, but then the OP would need two farseers, to support banshees and avengers right? Definitely a cool idea though, thanks, I've learned something new. As the list is now, I say the cheaper unit with more firepower wins out.

Again, I prefer wave serpents because they're cheaper, and because I like to get in the opposing army's face, and my opponents like melta guns. YMMV, it's not a huge difference either way.

Vypers, I completely disagree with you on, Mr F. Look at a SM landspeeder. These are good units, because they're close-topped, can deep strike, can carry more devastating weapons, and have better BS. Easily penetrated, vypers will then be destroyed on a 4+, 3+ if in a squadron/shot by ap1/have moved fast. That your opponent must 'dedicate a heavy weapon to bring down' the vyper is a bit meaningless, since it has a great chance of dying as soon as it's hit. Frankly, most opponents would be overjoyed to oblige you, thus destroying your unit and gathering a cheeky killpoint.

Sorry if that came off as abrasive, but I obviously don't support vypers.

I would take banshees over pathfinders. Every list needs some close combat power, and I find pathfinders are quite vulnerable to deepstrikers/anything else fast and armed with a flamer or assault capability.

Anyone can answer my question on just taking the Rangers instead of the Banshees + extra WS?

Banshees replace with Striking Scorpions with NO exarch. The Banshees will get shot to pieces once out the transport, and tend to be a one job unit only. The Scorpions get more attacks and with the points saved on the exarch you can get another scorpion. This way you still have your combat threat

I also reiterate, disagreeing with mercer this time, that the BEST way to use DAs is with twin catapults and baldestorm, PW/SS and defend are expensive upgrades, only work against some threats, and still won't save the fragile, non-fearless squad from a serious assault.

That maybe, but I didn't say it wasn't My point was he has a power weapon so he obivously intends to use them in close combat - defend would compliment this. But, I would rather take bladestorm as avengers aren't the best in c.c. Though, a power weapon can be useful for getting in some no armour save wounds, and if your against T3 Guard then you're on equal terms so a power weapon would be good in that case.