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P. 56 of the rules states, "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignoring gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas banners and other decorative elements)."
So let's grant that the Deff Rolla is one of these "other decorative elements. The next question is, can ork boyz deploy out of the front of a battlewagon? You cannot place the boyz on top of the rolla because the rules state you can never place models on top of each other. The deff rolla from the sprue rotates up, but is it legal to do that and deploy the boys basically under the rolla?

Im going to say no. you cant deploy them under the rolla

KingCracker wrote:Im going to say no. you cant deploy them under the rolla

The result being that equipping a wagon with a deff rolla prevents you from deploying in front of the wagon--thus negating advantage of it being open-topped. Ork players may want to stick with the ram if the deff rolla doesn't affect vehicles and prevents you from assaulting off the front.

I thought it could be counted as part of the hull (This also makes its "sides" longer, this making it easier to flank and shoot in the side)

Edit: And if you run over a unit first, you want to jump out on the back side, because that's probably where the enemy is unless they broke and ran.

You have to decide pre game. If it is part of the hill, they can disembark in front of it. If it isn't, they have to be 2" from where the hull "starts".

Simple!

Solotion: A 1" Deffrolla!

If any type of precedence counts for anything, the pic in the basic rulebook shows them not counting the ram on the Ork Trukk for purposes of disembarking.

Personally, I don't count my Deff Rolla as part of the hull for disembarking my Boyz.

olympia wrote:P. 56 of the rules states, "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignoring gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas banners and other decorative elements)."

That'd also mean that you can get an extra few inches on deployment in regards to the rolla, correct? Since the measurement for the deployment edge would be in regards to the hull only and tank shocking occurs on 'contact'?

Gorkamorka wrote:

olympia wrote:P. 56 of the rules states, "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignoring gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas banners and other decorative elements)."

That'd also mean that you can get an extra few inches on deployment in regards to the rolla, correct? Since the measurement for the deployment edge would be in regards to the hull only and tank shocking occurs on 'contact'?

I doubt many ork players would be happy to get an inch or two extra deployment at the price of losing the ability to assault off the front.

I've always played it as "Can't jump over the giant bit of whirling metal"

I think it's easiest and most in line with the rules to consider it part of the hull.
You really need to discuss it before the game because it's bound to matter.

I have always played it as part of the hull because mine are all quite substantial. we playtested it both ways, and frankly it creates more issues than it solves to NOT count it as part of the hull.

so I can disembark from there, and they only have to reach there to assault the tank or to see if it is in range. since it is consistent across 100% of my games none of my opponents have ever had an issue with it.

olympia wrote:P. 56 of the rules states, "Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignoring gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas banners and other decorative elements)."
So let's grant that the Deff Rolla is one of these "other decorative elements. The next question is, can ork boyz deploy out of the front of a battlewagon? You cannot place the boyz on top of the rolla because the rules state you can never place models on top of each other. The deff rolla from the sprue rotates up, but is it legal to do that and deploy the boys basically under the rolla?

Sure! If you'll let me deploy from the very tip of the doors on my Drop Pods... (which adds roughly another 4" to the movement)

Sorry, but you can't deploy in front of it.

Che-Vito wrote:Sure! If you'll let me deploy from the very tip of the doors on my Drop Pods... (which adds roughly another 4" to the movement)

Don't forget the 10" blade on the front of all my raiders...

well people can debate this one all they want. the difference is i'm not using it to create 4" extra movement (drop pod reference) or to do something cheesy. my solution came out of playtesting and finding out what practically worked to make the game intuitive rather than frustrating. we decided on this after someone measured a melta gun finding out that the deffrolla was in range but the hull wasnt. I let him take the shot and then got out from the front. as long as it is equitable between the players what is the problem?

It's not really a Deffrolla question, it's a Vehicle Hull question.

And the answer is that GW isn't going to tell us. You have to discuss it with your opponent/TO beforehand.

Another option is to remove the front two wheels of your Battlewagon and install the Deffrolla where they would normally be.

Now everything works and the overall footprint of the Battlewagon is unchanged.

The rules don't prohibit models from deploying on top of or underneath the Deff Rolla. The Deff Rolla isn't hull, so it isn't part of the BattleWagon model for purposes of where you can and can't put models:

"A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull)" BGB p. 11.

The Deff Rolla is neither base nor hull (it is indeed a decorative element as you've argued), so it is not a space occupied by the BattleWagon. Thus models may be moved into and occupy that space.

Hope this helps.

-GK

perhaps I should upload pics.. my deffrollas are all the width of the vehicle and several inches thick. it would be impractical to NOT count them as part of the hull.. and frankly would generate more comments of cheesy building than just running them as part of the hull which generates no complaints and makes the game much smoother.

NaZ wrote:it would be impractical to NOT count them as part of the hull.. and frankly would generate more comments of cheesy building than just running them as part of the hull which generates no complaints and makes the game much smoother.

Players may agree to ignore any rules they wish. See BGB p. 2

Hope this helps.

-GK

Please point me to which page defines what is and isn't the hull.

Thanks.

sourclams wrote:Please point me to which page defines what is and isn't the hull.

Thanks.

"for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements)." BGB p. 56

A deff rolla, like a dozer blade, is a decorative element (albeit one with in-game functionality), not hull.

Hope this helps.

-GK

GiantKiller wrote:

sourclams wrote:Please point me to which page defines what is and isn't the hull.

Thanks.

"for distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements)." BGB p. 56

A deff rolla, like a dozer blade, is a decorative element (albeit one with in-game functionality), not hull.

Hope this helps.

-GK

Please point me to which page defines whether a deff rolla is or isn't a decorative element.

Thanks.

gorkamorka wrote:Please point me to which page defines whether a deff rolla is or isn't a decorative element.

Thanks.

BGB p. 56. Note the examples of decorative elements provided.

Hope this helps.

-GK

GiantKiller wrote:

gorkamorka wrote:Please point me to which page defines whether a deff rolla is or isn't a decorative element.

Thanks.

BGB p. 56. Note the examples of decorative elements provided.

Hope this helps.

-GK

It does not, since it does not specify.

Also because, using your argument in the rolla thread, it is different from the examples given so it is impossible for them to be in the same grouping.
As you said, "Different = not the same. I'm embarrassed for all of us because I feel "different = not the same" actually needs to be stated in this thread."

Thanks.

Gorkamorka wrote:

GiantKiller wrote:

gorkamorka wrote:Please point me to which page defines whether a deff rolla is or isn't a decorative element.

Thanks.

BGB p. 56. Note the examples of decorative elements provided.

Hope this helps.

-GK

It does not, since it does not specify.

Also because, using your argument in the rolla thread, it is different from the examples given so it is impossible for them to be in the same grouping.
As you said, "Different = not the same. I'm embarrassed for all of us because I feel "different = not the same" actually needs to be stated in this thread."

Thanks.

GK, ignore the trolling. It's a decorative element plain and simple...sure it has functionality, but so do gun barrels, banners, and dozer blades.

Pressing the 'ignore button' for the troll now...wish I would've done it sooner...

Che-Vito wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

GiantKiller wrote:

gorkamorka wrote:Please point me to which page defines whether a deff rolla is or isn't a decorative element.

Thanks.

BGB p. 56. Note the examples of decorative elements provided.

Hope this helps.

-GK

It does not, since it does not specify.

Also because, using your argument in the rolla thread, it is different from the examples given so it is impossible for them to be in the same grouping.
As you said, "Different = not the same. I'm embarrassed for all of us because I feel "different = not the same" actually needs to be stated in this thread."

Thanks.

GK, ignore the trolling. It's a decorative element plain and simple...sure it has functionality, but so do gun barrels, banners, and dozer blades.

Pressing the 'ignore button' for the troll now...wish I would've done it sooner...

His argument was actually that ludicrous, but that aside is niether here nor there.

Sorry for entertaining the notion that something not specified in the rules might not follow your interpretation automatically.
I'll gladly place my rolla past my deployment line and then disembark on top of it, I suppose. Win/Win.

Gorkamorka wrote:His argument was actually that ludicrous, but that aside is niether here nor there.

Sorry for entertaining the notion that something not specified in the rules might not follow your interpretation automatically.
I'll gladly place my rolla past my deployment line and then disembark on top of it, I suppose. Win/Win.

And I will deploy my Devestators on top of my rhino so I can drive it 12 inches a turn while they fire off their heavy weapons. Win/Win.

edit: Just to clarify, my point is while there are no rules saying you can't deploy ontop of vehicles to the best of my knowledge, it's commonly accepted that you cannot.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:His argument was actually that ludicrous, but that aside is niether here nor there.

Sorry for entertaining the notion that something not specified in the rules might not follow your interpretation automatically.
I'll gladly place my rolla past my deployment line and then disembark on top of it, I suppose. Win/Win.

And I will deploy my Devestators on top of my rhino so I can drive it 12 inches a turn while they fire off their heavy weapons. Win/Win.

And you'd be blatantly breaking the rules, namely "A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull)" BGB p. 11

The rules and conclusions presented in the thread seem to support both the ability to place the rolla past your deployment line and deploy on top of it if it is indeed decorative and not part of the hull. Feel free to point out something that doesn't support it and I'll gladly not do it.

Gorkamorka wrote:The rules and conclusions presented in the thread support both the ability to place the rolla past your deployment line and deploy on top of it if it is indeed decorative and not part of the hull. Feel free to point out something that doesn't support it and I'll gladly not do it.

Decorative or Hull doesn't matter when it comes to deploying on top, it's still standing on top of a model. Just like while you can't draw LOS to a banner (decorative) it can still block LOS to units behind it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gorkamorka wrote:And you'd be blatantly breaking the rules, namely "A model may not move into or through the space occupied by another model (which is represented by its base or by its hull)" BGB p. 11

It is not moving into or through the hull, it is moving ontop of it.