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If a Tomb Spider creates a scarab swarm can a lord attach to the squad? Or can the Lord attach to a naked Tomb Spider?

A naked TS is a monstrous creature, so the lord could not attach.

With added scarabs I thikn the Lord could join. No idea why you would want it to though...

You would give the Lord a destroyer body so he's T6, then have it join and make 2 swarms so the Lord and TS can share 6 wounds that have 2+ cover saves.

wow...that would actually work! Give the lord a Destroyer body, and maybe like a phase shifter for the 4+ invuln or something else, and you could have the lord+spider+2 scarabs...however, the scarabs can't turboboost in the squad, so won't get their epic 2+ cover saves (unless they are in 3+ cover)

The restriction does not prevent ICs from ever joining Monstrous Creatures, the rules say:

"They cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures)"

Monstrous Creatures are merely given as an example of something which is traditionally restricted to being a single lone model. Since the Tomb Spider is not "always a single model" given it's ability to spawn scarabs that join it's unit, an IC can join a Tomb Spider regardless of whether it has already spawned Scarabs or not.

Similarly, if there were a unit of multiple MCs, any IC would be able to attach to them, as they are not "always a single model", on the other hand, ICs cannot attach to such things as Lictors, Zoanthropes, Imperial Assassins, and probably a few more that I cannot think of.

Just wondering if Lord would join this squad, could they use his Deep Strike thing?
I think it says it's only models with Necron rule, but I don't play Necrons and my friend lost his copy of printed Codex.
Yes he does play with points coming out of his head.

VoD only works with models with the Necron Special Rule.

Well, you guys are on to me I was thinking of putting lord w/ destroyer body with t. spider and 2 scarab swarms for a pile of T6 wounds from shooting. My question is this then......
When being shot at, if I have half of this said unit in cover and since half of the squad recieves a +1 to cover saves, does the entire unit benefit from the +1 cover save?
Also, doesn't the T. spider need to be 50% obscured to get a cover save?
So if T. Spider is only part of unit you see and it is in the open but the rest of the unit is in cover, Do I allocate wounds and any allocated to the swarms or lord recieve 3+ cover while the T. Spider gets none, do wounds have to go on T. Spider, does unit not get cover save at all because of the monstrous creature??
Why is this such a complicated unit??

When being shot at, if I have half of this said unit in cover and since half of the squad recieves a +1 to cover saves, does the entire unit benefit from the +1 cover save?

No, only the scarabs you allocate the wounds to get the bonus save.

Also, doesn't the T. spider need to be 50% obscured to get a cover save?

yup

So if T. Spider is only part of unit you see and it is in the open but the rest of the unit is in cover, Do I allocate wounds and any allocated to the swarms or lord recieve 3+ cover while the T. Spider gets none, do wounds have to go on T. Spider, does unit not get cover save at all because of the monstrous creature??

If the two scarab swarms and the Lord are in cover, then the Tomb Spyder does get a cover save even if it's in the open - say the cover is 3+, the Lord and Spyder get 3+ whilst the scarabs get 2+ (because of their "small target" rule)

Scarab swarms actually add +2 to their cover saves. They benefit from "small target" and "stealth." Yay old codex!

RobPro wrote:Scarab swarms actually add +2 to their cover saves. They benefit from "small target" and "stealth." Yay old codex!

Reading my codex...where does it say they get stealth?

Eight Ball wrote:

RobPro wrote:Scarab swarms actually add +2 to their cover saves. They benefit from "small target" and "stealth." Yay old codex!

Reading my codex...where does it say they get stealth?

According to the Necron FAQ Scarab Swarms are Swarms as presented in the BRB, which says of Swarms: "All swarms have the 'stealth' and 'vulnerable to blasts/templates' special rules."

which means they have Stealth as well as Small Target and get a total of +2 to cover saves.

I would argue that the two seperate Vulnerable rules should then also stack though, the rulebook version is "each unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds" and the codex version is "Template, Ordnance and Blast marker weapons inflict two wounds instead of one on Scarab Swarms."

So I would say, determine hits, roll to wound, for each successful wound, 2 wounds must be saved by the unit (codex) for each unsaved wound, 2 wounds are lost from a model (rulebook).

yeah, I just looked at that as "Well, they're just restating what we already know swarms have" and went on...but that's an interesting take

Well, it said scarabs are swarms as described in the BRB, which I took to replace the swarm entry from the codex (which also had vulnerable to blasts). Small Target is a separate line in the codex, which is why it looks like it stacks.

RobPro wrote:Well, it said scarabs are swarms as described in the BRB, which I took to replace the swarm entry from the codex (which also had vulnerable to blasts). Small Target is a separate line in the codex, which is why it looks like it stacks.

Maybe the newer edition has changed it, my copy of the Necron codex has vulnerable to blasts as an entirely seperate rule to the swarms rule that they have.

RobPro wrote:Scarab swarms actually add +2 to their cover saves. They benefit from "small target" and "stealth." Yay old codex!

Wrong. Codex trumps rulebook. Nowhere in the Codex does it say they get the Swarm USR. They have their own version of Swarm, which is almost completely different than the USR. They also have their own version of Stealth and Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates.

By RAW, the Scarab Swarms have what they have in the Codex; which is +1 to their cover saves and two wounds per unsaved wound from Templates (and move as jetbikes and can't score etc.)

note: I disregard the GW Necron FAQ completely as I think most of it is rubbish.

You're free to disregard the FAQ all you want, but it doesn't make my point any less valid.

Most tournament environments tend to go by the Codex + FAQ, which supports what I've posted.

Edit: And about multiple to blasts... wouldn't multiple instances of that be redundant, and thus not matter?

Holy Cause is right, codex trumps rulebook. The scarabs get the Necron version of swarms, not the Swarm USR

ChristmasMarine wrote:Holy Cause is right, codex trumps rulebook. The scarabs get the Necron version of swarms, not the Swarm USR

Unless you use the FAQ, which 99.9999999999999999999% of people (yes even me sometimes) and tournaments do.

true, but i thought we were doing strictly BRB. If its FAQ, then I guess i'm wrong here

You -have- to use the FAQ to play Necrons. It's too frustrating otherwise (for both players).

so if you play in a tournament they'll give you a +2 modifier to your cover save?

uh huh.

HolyCause wrote:so if you play in a tournament they'll give you a +2 modifier to your cover save?

uh huh.

If you play anywhere they will...

So let me get this straight. The argument is because the Necron Codex says scarabs get +1 to their cover save, and because they are listed as a swarm they recieve an additional +1 to thier cover save because "stealth" is attributed to swarms via the rule book they get a cumulative +2 for any cover save. So if they are following behind a squad of somesort and would normally get a 4+ cover save this would become a 2+ cover save. As much as I love the Crons and perhaps this is the way you are supposed to play, I forsee this becoming an argument, and using this at a tourney may create a bit of an argument that hurts your sportsman score. I would feel uneasy using this reasoning. Technically yes it seems they are recieving the +1 due to various sources but essentially it is two differant wordings of the same +1 only there is a generational gap between the codex and the current rule book. Is this the way people have been playing it Im curious? So going to ground in the open they recieve a 4+ cover save. Also, if they were part of a complex unit with say, the Necron Lord, would the lord then recieve the 2+ cover if the unit was in cover??

Keep in mind that Swarms is a USR that is not lost or conferred upon IC joining units. So Scarabs get a 2+ Cover save but those abilities to do not alter the cover save of a Lord joining the Swarm unit except in situations where you use the Majority Cover save or which ever one is higher.

Necron Lords and Tomb Spyders do not receive a bonus from small target or stealth. It does not say ICs gain these for joining a unit, and the FAQ specifically states Tomb Spyders don't get it.

And to expand on your example, Norbu...

If you plod a Tomb Spyder up the table behind one of your squads, the squad blocks the Scarab Swarm which is half the unit. The MC doesn't get a cover save as the MC would need to be 50% or more obscured, but the swarm will have 3 wounds that get a 2+ cover save to suck shots at the Tomb Spyder.

Just out of curiosity. Why would the issue of cover and what not between Lord, scarab swarms and Tomb spiders evon come up ina game?
It seems pointless to join the two units as the tombspider and scarabs can't benefit from the lords two greatest wargear options ie Res orb and VOD. Just put him in a unit of immortals

RobPro wrote:Necron Lords and Tomb Spyders do not receive a bonus from small target or stealth. It does not say ICs gain these for joining a unit, and the FAQ specifically states Tomb Spyders don't get it.

And to expand on your example, Norbu...

If you plod a Tomb Spyder up the table behind one of your squads, the squad blocks the Scarab Swarm which is half the unit. The MC doesn't get a cover save as the MC would need to be 50% or more obscured, but the swarm will have 3 wounds that get a 2+ cover save to suck shots at the Tomb Spyder.

er ... he would from stealth USR because stealth gives the Unit +1 to their cover save

FAQ says otherwise.

You join the Necron Lord to make it T6 and have 3 extra wounds that usually get a 2+ cover save. Also, the Lord doesn't have to be in a unit of Necrons for that unit to benefit from the Res. Orb.

RobPro wrote:FAQ says otherwise.

What, the FAQ states the Lord Specifically does not benefit from Stealth?