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I got in a argument with someone who I think may be TFG about transports. Basically he stated you cannot start a unit inside a nondedicated transport before the game instead they have to be outside and then embark on it during movement of your first turn.


Now I found the rule where you can deploy inside a dedicated transport but cannot find the rule for nondedicated.


Scenario:

I bought a ten man term squad with a redeemer as a ded transport. I bought a Redeemer as a H support choice. During my deployment I combat squaded put 5 in the dedicated and 5 in the other.

He was insistant taht I could not do this at all. That I had to start both squads outside of the LR then during my movement embark. I explained he had sex with goats and how you could start this way.


Anyway I really couldnt find a rule for it or against it.


So where is it in the rulebook tht you ca start deployed inside a transport?

You can deploy inside a Non Dedicated just fine, as there is no restriction saying you cannot, and inside a non dedicated transport is still inside your deployment zone.

You can't deploy a unit in a dedicated unless it's that unit's dedicated. That's the only restriction on deploying inside a transport capable vehicle

You can't argue the rules are nonpermissive and permissive. I cannot find it anywhere in the deployment rules.

The only thing I can find is this blurb abou starting the game inside a dedicated transports in the transport section.


A dedicated transport may have the unit it was purchased for start the game inside it.


Where is it in the rules that state : A unit may be deployed inside a transport during deployment.


I can not seriously find it I can find it for dedicated but not for nondedicated vehicle.

Look, the rules say you may deploy anywhere inside your deployment zone. Inside a transport vehicle is inside your deployment zone. I fail to see the problem.

Thats not true and there are several things wrong with that argument.

1. You may not place models within impassable terrain.
1b : Models are considered impassable terrain

2. Models are removed from the table when embarked. So they are actually not being deployed on the table.

3. Models are only able to enter vehicles through embarkation
3b Embarkation can only occur during the movement phase.

3c . Exception is made for dedicated tranports

3d. Exception is made under the reserve rules.


There is not a single rule that I can find for transports. Do i do it yes. RAW is what I am looking for or a strong argument.

Ok, hows this. It states that the ONLY restriction is that only the unit it was bought for may begin inside it. If units could not start inside non dedicated transports, it would not be the ONLY restriction.

Yes, but thats a retriction on dedicated you'd be inferring rules if you said it applied to normal transports. I agrre you can do it. I am jut having a hell of a time argueing a strong point for it.


My argument was similar to that ; in the blurb it discusses that only units that are purchased along with the dedicated transport may start inside it. This would seem to indicate that transports with not purchased as dedicated units do not have the restriction.


gah I am at the coffee shop I need my rulebook.

What is the exact wording?

Just because I'm bored and should be painting:

Models, by default, are impassible terrain. Models can't be placed in impassible terrain. Therefore, you can't place models in transports because that would involve them being placed in impassible terrain. Since the models can't be placed in the vehicle, how can you claim that they've been deployed there?

There are no rules which say that a model can be deployed in a regular transport on the table. There is one rule which says that a dedicated transport can only "carry" the unit with which was selected, yet there's no rule explaining how it's supposed to get there before the game. The best anyone can say is that "Oh, deploying in the same space means that I'm embarking them onto the transport." That's completely silly, and just misguided rules lawyering. Rules lawyering should be used for evil, not good.

And really, if you'd like to debate whether there's a difference between "in" and "embarked in", there's a certain other thread concerning Culexus Assassins shooting psykers "in" transports.

I'm off to take my medication now...

is the INSIDE of a vehicle impassable terrain?

Edit: This is a stupid question, but I can't think of the answer (nor find it)

is the inside of a vehicle terrain at all? It doesn't provide a cover save (though you can't be shot at because there's no line of sight)

Edit2: HAHA! I found a piece of the rulebook that expains that yes, you can deploy units inside transports. P94 under reserves, it states that "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve"

because you can taxi in units inside undedicated transports out of reserves, I'd say you can do it on deployment too.

I don't have my rulebook handy but I am pretty sure models are removed from play and placed off table when embarking onto a vehicle.

So they kind of exist in this weird purgatory type state.



Seriously, where the hell is a good argument. As it stands its just start the game next to a transport then jump on when its your first turn.

Which pretty much makes no sense what so ever.

Hollismason wrote:
Seriously, where the hell is a good argument.

There's one in the reserves rules, but that's pretty much the only place I found it, it's nowhere else in the rulebook as far as I can see.

starbomber109 wrote:is the INSIDE of a vehicle impassable terrain?

Edit: This is a stupid question, but I can't think of the answer (nor find it)

is the inside of a vehicle terrain at all? It doesn't provide a cover save (though you can't be shot at because there's no line of sight)

I await with eagerness and anticipation anyone who attempts to place some of their models inside some of their transports and somehow manages to not place those same models in the others. (Ouch, that sentence hurts.) Open up your rhinos, if you've had the foresight not to glue them shut, place your marines inside, and *lo*, the marines are standing on the floor. The floors part of the model, and *lo*, the marines are standing on impassible terrain.

Edit2: HAHA! I found a piece of the rulebook that expains that yes, you can deploy units inside transports. P94 under reserves, it states that "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve"

because you can taxi in units inside undedicated transports out of reserves, I'd say you can do it on deployment too.

You found the rule which says that a unit can be embarked if it's in reserves. Now find the rule which applies to being deployed. ;-/

What? How is coming in from reserves not the exact same thing as deploying?

Page 94 of the Rule Book-
"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as decribed later."

There you go. It says that units arriving from reserve are deploying. It actually uses the word 'deploys'.
No inference required.

There. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Without quoting the exact rules, it's clear that deployment means putting lead on table and in reserves and telling your opponent about it. (I think it's higher up on p.94.)

Deployment, with a capital "D", is a specific phase of the game just before "Start the Game!" happens.

Reserves use the "little d" deploys, which is not the same thing at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deployment, with a capital "D", is a specific phase of the game just before "Start the Game!" happens.

Reserves use the "little d" deploys, which is not the same thing at all.

So capitol letters and exclamation points denote totally separate actions? Like a Tank Shock is a separate action?

wait for it...

Edit: On topic, there's a whole section on there about how you can deploy units inside transports (It only mentions dedicated transports though, not any vehicles like Falcons or Land Raiders...it dosn't exclude these vehicles, and in the transport rules it states that "A transport may transport a single unit of infantry" and doesn't say WHEN it can/can't do this. So it can probably start with transporting a unit.)

I'm always fascinated how things like this take on a life of their own. Thousands of gamers have had no problems for a couple of decades using transports. Suddenly by RAW we don't know how they work.)

mikhaila wrote:I'm always fascinated how things like this take on a life of their own. Thousands of gamers have had no problems for a couple of decades using transports. Suddenly by RAW we don't know how they work.)

That's GW's fault.

It's to a degree GWs fault but most people play it one way you only run into it with that fing guy.


I have not found anything saying you can begin the game deployed inside your own purchased transports though. Just dedicated and deploying them inside transports that are also in reserve.

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but you measure to the hull of a transport for measurements dealing with the units inside.

so during deployment, as long as the vehicle's hull meets deployment rules, so does the unit inside it.

There are a couple of places where GW has not fully explained rules in the BRB. It's not too bad, but it's pretty easy to figure that the rules writers never thought that gamers would have questions about concepts that to them were basic assumptions.

I feel that starting the game embarked in non-dedicated transports is one of these areas. The game implies that you can do it, but does not really give you specific permission to do so.

solkan wrote:

Edit2: HAHA! I found a piece of the rulebook that expains that yes, you can deploy units inside transports. P94 under reserves, it states that "Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or independent characters in reserve"

You found the rule which says that a unit can be embarked if it's in reserves.

Actually, he just found the rule that says you must tell your opponent if any units in Reserve are in transports. That doesn't actually give them permission to be there. It simply tells you what to do if they are there.

The rule actually allowing them to go in there in the first place is somewhat notable by its absence. We can imply that it's supposed to be there... but it's not.


The assumption that you can place whichever units you like into non-dedicated transports is a fairly common one, though. I would strongly suspect that it's the way the vast majority play it.

If GW had to list every exclusion to the rules you'd have a compendium 200 pages long.

As an aside, I have a Witch Hunters list I sometimes run that has both a Heavy Support Immolator (which is also a transport) and an Inquisitor Lord with a Land Raider. Most of the time I deploy my Inquisitor Lord inside the Immolator and leave the Land Raider rider-less, even though that is my dedicated vehicle. Point being: the rules say a unit cannot start out in a transport vehicle that is dedicated to another unit, but leaves the option open to ride in an undedicated transport vehicle.

davidgr33n wrote:If GW had to list every exclusion to the rules you'd have a compendium 200 pages long.

Sure... but would one extra sentence stating 'When deploying an infantry unit, or declaring it placed in Reserves, you may choose to place the unit inside any suitable non-dedicated transport.' be that much trouble...? ')

Should I submit this to the INAT faq thread.


I mean the consensus is that RAW there is actually no way to do it at all.

Hollismason wrote:Should I submit this to the INAT faq thread.


I mean the consensus is that RAW there is actually no way to do it at all.

Consensus of people on this forum that feel like argueing by RAW, and took part in this thread.

That's a bit more narrow group that has been polled. If anything, I think it points out some of the silliness in RAW, rather than flaws in a game system, or rules that anyone would actually play by. But by all means, add it to the INAT faq, in the hopes it gets answered, and no TFG tries to pull this in a tournament.

I would be careful assuming it's common consensus that people can jump into non-dedicated transports. I for one would assume otherwise, that's part of the advantage of a dedicated transport. This issue also comes up frequently in questions about allies, and the most common assumption in those discussions seems to be that units cannot start in non-dedicated transports. Whichever way is "correct," it's probably not a super obvious issue that has a lot of consensus.