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Right so...
I was playing a game of 40k today!
It was turn three and my chaos army HQ's Typhus and abaddon were in close combat by a single unit of orks.(Typhus and Abaddon were base to base)
Now the unit of orks spread their attacks 15 onto Abaddon and 15 onto Typhus, but Typhus is equipped with Blight grenades and the rule is and I quote
"THESE ARE DEFENSIVE GRENADES, WHICH MEANS THAT ENEMY UNITS DO NOT GAIN THEIR BONUS ATTACKS FOR CHARGING IF THEY ARE ASSAULTING A UNIT OF PLAGUE MARINES"
This then should effect the whole unit regardless of who they are attacking as long as there is somebody there who is equiped with blight grenads so the Ork unit will not get thier Bonus charging attack against Abaddon or Typhus because they are both locked in combat with the same unit at the same time.
But my mate say he'll get the extra attacks just on Abaddon.
Am I right in thinking this or is my mate? if i'm wrong i'll say sorry for disputing this with him.

You are right. Unlike offensive grenades, if even 1 model has defensive grenades, the whole unit gets the effect.

Although it could be argued that since IC's count as separate targets for resolving attacks, models attacking Abaddon are not attacking the unit with the defensive grenades, and so get the bonus attack.


The IC/Assault rules are somewhat nebulous... they describe what happens when a unit with a joined IC attacks but don't actually mention what happens when such a unit is itself attacked.

Taking the wording as probably intended though, as meaning that ICs count as a separate unit for resolving attacks whether they are the assaulter or assaultee, the grenade effect probably does apply. Each IC counts as a separate unit when resolving attacks, but before that point they are still one unit (assuming they were joined in the first place).

So at the point in time that the Orks charged they were charging a unit with blight grenades, so don't get the extra attack.

I think I'd play it that the models attacking typhus do not get their bonus for charging, whilst those placing attacks on Abbadon do

I would agree with the ork player here. The two IC's aren't a squad, so Typhus' grenades don't count for abaddon.

Except, as I pointed out, they don't get any bonus attacks, so all this "I think they get them" talk is meaningless.

Kabal of Night's Wish wrote:I would agree with the ork player here. The two IC's aren't a squad, so Typhus' grenades don't count for abaddon.

Except that the rules for Typhus grenades has nothing to do with what unit he is in. The Orks is charging a unit with defensive grenades wether or not they charge Abbadon as well and as the rules for defensive grenades say, the whole unit of orks are affected by it. It doesn´t matter what models are attacking Abbadon as they are still charging a unit with def. grenades and thus the entire unit is affected.

Warboss Tufgrim wrote: The Orks is charging a unit with defensive grenades wether or not they charge Abbadon as well and as the rules for defensive grenades say, the whole unit of orks are affected by it.

This is not quite correct.

The rules for defensive grenades actually say that models charging a unit with defensive grenades do not receive the bonus.
However, the rules for Blight Grenades (which were written in 4th edition, before defensive grenades existed in the core rules) are slightly different, and state that units assaulting a unit of Plague Marines do not receive the attack bonus.

That leaves us with a couple of questions:
1: Should Blight Grenades use their rules as written in the codex, or should we go with the newer rules for Defensive Grenades as printed in the 5th edition rulebook?
and
2: Does Typhus actually gain any benefit from them anyway, since he's not a 'unit of Plague Marines'...?


The answer to the second is obviously supposed to be 'Yes'... RAW, he doesn't gain any benefit, but that would defy any point in him having the grenades in the first place.

The answer to the first is really up to you. Do you go with the sloppy wording from the Chaos Codex, which would bar a unit engaged with the Plague Marines from getting the bonus attack no matter who they were attacking (this would still apply in multiple combats with completely separate units. If the assaulting unit contacts at least one Plague Marine, they don't get the bonus against any of the units with which they are engaged...) or do you go with the rulebook entry that actually added a 5th edition definition of Defensive Grenades into the game, in which case only those models that actually engage the unit with the grenades is affected.

If Typhus and Abbadon are separate units (that is, not attached to the same squad or to eachother) would it make any difference whether the orks declare the assault on Abbadon and hit Typhus as a secondary unit or declare the assault on Typhus and hit Abbadon as a secondary unit?

Basically what I'm asking is, when you declare an assault on unit A, and proceed to enter close combat with both Unit A and Unit B, are you still "assaulting" Unit B?

If you wind up engaged with a unit, you are assaulting them.

Gwar! wrote:You are right. Unlike offensive grenades, if even 1 model has defensive grenades, the whole unit gets the effect.

QFT, as always Gwar is right. The grenades affect his whole unit

insaniak wrote:

Warboss Tufgrim wrote: The Orks is charging a unit with defensive grenades wether or not they charge Abbadon as well and as the rules for defensive grenades say, the whole unit of orks are affected by it.

This is not quite correct.

The rules for defensive grenades actually say that models charging a unit with defensive grenades do not receive the bonus.
However, the rules for Blight Grenades (which were written in 4th edition, before defensive grenades existed in the core rules) are slightly different, and state that units assaulting a unit of Plague Marines do not receive the attack bonus.

That leaves us with a couple of questions:
1: Should Blight Grenades use their rules as written in the codex, or should we go with the newer rules for Defensive Grenades as printed in the 5th edition rulebook?
and
2: Does Typhus actually gain any benefit from them anyway, since he's not a 'unit of Plague Marines'...?


The answer to the second is obviously supposed to be 'Yes'... RAW, he doesn't gain any benefit, but that would defy any point in him having the grenades in the first place.

The answer to the first is really up to you. Do you go with the sloppy wording from the Chaos Codex, which would bar a unit engaged with the Plague Marines from getting the bonus attack no matter who they were attacking (this would still apply in multiple combats with completely separate units. If the assaulting unit contacts at least one Plague Marine, they don't get the bonus against any of the units with which they are engaged...) or do you go with the rulebook entry that actually added a 5th edition definition of Defensive Grenades into the game, in which case only those models that actually engage the unit with the grenades is affected.

According to blight grenade wording, you are correct RAW typhus shouldnt even gain the bonus from them. But if you were to treat him as a stand alone "unit" of plague marines, then he would gain the bonus but no one else would, unless the unit he joins is plague marines. Abaddon, and any non plague marine unit are not PMs, so do not gain the benefit.

gameandwatch wrote:But if you were to treat him as a stand alone "unit" of plague marines, then he would gain the bonus but no one else would, unless the unit he joins is plague marines. Abaddon, and any non plague marine unit are not PMs, so do not gain the benefit.

If you're going solely by the wording of the Blight Grenade entry (and assuming that Typhus counts as a 'unit of PMs) then every other Chaos model involved in the combat benefits from the grenades.

Again, the Blight Grenade entry states that they affect the unit that is attacking the PMs, not just the models attacking them.

Fair enough, I musta overlooked that bit. Yeah, if it says "effects the unit attacking..." then they would all gain that benefit...

It hasn't been spelled out, but Typhus and Abbadon are in fact one unit in this case. If they were in base to base contact with each other during the ork turn, that implies they were within 2" of each other at the end of their move. If I recall, that means they automatically join each other as one unit.

Maybe a little secondary to the issue of the grenades, but it does clear up the issue of whether they are one unit.