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I need help, especially against one unit. One person in our group plays DE and he used the typical Black Guard unit, with ASF an unkillable, but quite killy, lord and a ring of hotek in a 14 man Black Guard unit. Usually he has a cauldron in support, so my question is how do i kill this unit using HE? I am trying to think of how i can, but i just don't know what to use. Most units will be struck down before they get a chance to strike, my shooting is limited and also he has a lot of units to take out my RBTs and archers. And i cannot magic it. Do i just give it the run around the park treatment with an eagle, or is there anyway to beat this unit for me.
I thought of dragon princes, but the black guard won't run so after the first turn i am back to being in trouble again.
Also i am trying to stay away from a Star Dragon list, but if that is the only way then at least i know that, but i was trying to see if there were some other ideas.

What are your respective lists? Shooting is really the most efficient way, but if you can avoid it with a march-blocking eagle, that helps. I mean, that's like 400ish of his points invested there.

DE are a pain to deal with with HE's, given that Eternal Hatred makes them much cheaper than they're worth against HE's (Valour of Ages doesn't even close to competing with Eternal Hatred).

Black Guard do extremely well in combat.

However, they will only do well IN combat, so march blocking and shooting them will see those Black Guard reduced to small numbers quite quickly.

Shoot them up and avoid combat. The rest of his army will probably be easy to take out so just avoid the black guard like the plague and whittle everything else down around it.

The problem i am having is that the rest of his list also needs to be shot at, Hydras are tough and witch elves with an assassin almost impossible to beat in close combat, he has a lot of repeater cross bows and bolt throwers so his shooting is better than mine for the same or less points. He also takes dark riders and shades to hunt warmachines.
I take teclis, bsb w/battle banner. 20 archers, 2 swordmaster units, one @ 14 and one at 7. 5 DPs with ellyrion, 14 PG (battle banner in here), 2 eagles and 2 RBTs. I am tempted to take another mage and give him the ring of corin, that way i can blast his ring of hotek and magic him to death (both the black guard and the witches)

Seems like you've met the Rock to your Scissors. The best you can do is try to lure away his Black Guard somewhere to the side of the board (unlikely unless your opponent decides to be silly). Your PG unit probably has the best chance against the BG, just through resiliency, though the Buffing from the Cauldron will make it an uphill battle (and the lack of killiness of the PG will make it difficult to win).

Ever consider running a Nullstone Prince? Him in a unit of PG can really ruin a BG-Hotek-Hag Graef unit's day. Granted, the Prince becomes incredibly vulnerable at that point (though if you have him with DA, shield and a GW, you can always elect to use HW + Shield to get a 3+ in combat).

I'd put those Swordmasters in a unit of 21. I don't think Witch Elves will take 2 S6 hits kindly, especially with ASF in the mix.

Black Guard have T3 and a 5+ save, just shoot them and try to avoid combats with him (Eagles are great march blockers and redirectors).

Aren't swordsmasters St 5? (don't have book with me ATM).


8 Dragon Princes (to absorb shots and assassin hits)
Full command
Warbanner
Noble, Barded steed, shield, dragon armour, lance, battle banner
Prince, Barded steed, shield, Vambraces, dragon armour, magical weapon (preferably one that increases attacks)

That is the hammer.


*EDIT- Had to run off at work, so delayed the rest of my post which follows*
x4 RBTs for the hydra.
4-5 units 12 bowmen.
2 mages for darin magic/fire spells
Anything left over buy the skeinsilver so you get even more chance of first turn.

The only way that I have beaten this unit is by pinning them with PG in the front and then SM in the flank. Otherwise shoot and avoid. It is not to difficult to kill off the rest of his army.

This does not always work as it is dependent on the PG holding for a turn which they can do if Korhil is in there (and survives) or if you roll well with your 4+ ward saves and win the roll off to go after the characters.

OH I almost forgot. You must have the std of balance in there to negate the hatred. That evens the fight out quite a bit.

Std of Balance doesn't really help against Black Guard because of their "Warrior Elite" ability - even without hatred, they always reroll to hit in combat.

@W_G - yes, they are S5.

What about a squad of PG with two nobles, one with reaver bow, gw, da and bsb, second noble with AOC and GW or some other combination. PG champ accepts challenge from lord, dies a horrible death and the two nobles kill off the squad, the reaver bow gets to shoot probably 3-4 times (3 times plus stand and shoot, give yourself the +1 to go first item on PG champ) even with a 5+ ward that is 5-6 dead, no ward and you have 8 dead and when the nobles kill 3-4 more when they charge you now have rank+bsb+outnumber and might actually win combat, if the PG go first that is another 1 dead. In the second round (given stubborn ld9 its probable if you win combat) the AOC noble accepts challenge, probably dies to killing blow, but 2-3 more black guard are killed, leaving only the champ and standard plus the lord.
Does this sound feasible, i admit this means you have a 600 point unit going against a 500 point unit but hey life never was supposed to be fair

I mean, it'd probably work, but you'd be better off just sending off a unit of PG to redirect them away from everything else and hope that they can hold long enough to let you worry about everything else.

Why a unit of PG, why not an strategically placed forest with an eagle but yeah that is probably a better idea, but I am strongly thinking about a Noble with reaver bow, he seems pretty decent to me, have you/anyone had success with him? 3 s5 shots usually hitting on 2s at long range and when they charge 3 s6 hits from a GW, plus stand and shoot.

The Reaver Bow noble is amazing at getting rid of CoK's. Helps give some extra oomph to a block of infantry to boot (I'm considering running one in a unit of PG myself).

What about your cheatyface +D6 res banner that always seems to do the trick round here.

I'd get the +1 to go first magic item, with any luck you'll be +2 to go first.

Turn 1: shoot everything into the Black guard, it will then be dead. you have 20 archers+ 2 bolt thrower which will each shoot 6x. From there, target either the witch elves, or the hydra.

I also think you use 1 eagle to make the witch elves run casing them, for the frenzied charge, try to move them in the way of something else, bottle him up.

Realistically, you should win with careful planning and fore thought most games. I wouldn't even cast much, just shoot and plan to fight it out when he's close. Use dragon princes as a hammer.

I also think you don't need Teclis, dropping him should free up a good chunk of points for use elsewhere.

I am using this list as a take on everyone list, teclis was, in my mind, the most point efficiant magic defense/offense that i could take. I get and average of 6 dispel dice and a scroll (that has the potential to eliminate a spell) while having a strong offense, despite any magic defense my opponent may have. 10 PD (again on average) with doubles being IF and the ability to ignore the first miscast is a huge boon. With him alone i have a solid magic defense and an offense that will work against any opponent.
Now saying this, yes taking teclis against my dark elf opponent is sinking a lot of points into, well nothing. I could shut down his magic phase with a single scroll caddy w/ drain magic and the offensive usefulness would not be diminished too much. On the other hand against most other armies the extra 290 points (assuming lvl2 scroll,scroll,silver wand) adds a huge dimension to my game that the opponent now needs to deal with. Also after hotek is gone (Rule of Burning Iron perhaps to snipe him, metal may not be the best against DE, but does have its uses. Master of the forge against his Hydra to good effect, along with CoK) magic is again a strong option.

CajunMan550 wrote:What about your cheatyface +D6 res banner that always seems to do the trick round here.

It might keep the PG from losing but BG are stubborn so it doesn't help you kill the unit.