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Allright, so I have been playing my friend who has been rolling me the last three weeks. We have been playing 1500 and Dawn of War with KPs.

He takes a daemon prince backed up by 9 oblits and 2 rhino plague marine squads w/Pfist ACs, meltas and havoc launcher on one.
My list is 2 rhino tacs w/Pfists and usually MM/melta or Plasma Cannon/Plasma; 2-3 dreads (if 2 then termies); 1-2 dakka preds and 1 w/LC sponsons, 2-3 MM speeders. HQ is either Vulkan or a Termie Lib.

The problem is I can't ever seem to make the KPs. His oblits usually walk on flinging plasma or las shots, rhinos drive up and prince uses them and any cover. Dreads can get into combat with PMs, but the DP will counter charge and nuke them. My plasma *always* overheats. Two games it melted the gunner first turn. Once the DP gets in there, its pretty much game over since he can thump 2 dreads and usually a tank before getting smoked. If I can reap the prince, a squad, a rhino, and maybe get lucky and get an oblits squad, I am usually down a kp or two. Usually dead speeders (1KP), 2 rhinos (2kp), 2 dreads (2kp) and maybe a squad.

Target priority may be an issue, but I can't figure out how to get around it. There are 8 kps in his list and, realistically, I can maybe get 4-6 in a game. But it is tough to not give up at least as many in the process. My AC preds usually shoot at transports, but seem to struggle. MGs usually go after the DP or oblits (S8 means a dead oblit per shot if it fails save).

I have tried assault terminators and they STEAMROLLED the PMs, but out of combat they are very vulnerable to Oblit Plasma Cannons. 6-9 blast templates hurts even at 3+ save. And he has yet to take a wound to overheat.

Suggestions? This is a matchup I am really struggling with.

Take the librarian everytime. Here's why. Vortex of Doom+Termie Armor=Ultimate Kamikaze Fighter.
Im serious. One time, I deep-striked my librarian and killed 6 decked out super-nobs and a warboss.
if the Obliterators are givin you that much trouble, just add Vortex of Doom for instant dead guys.
If you dont want it to be a total kamikaze mission, have the termies escort him to take some shots, but just remember that you're facing plasma weapons. Oh, and deepstriking and using VoD can sometimes be horrendous. I killed my librarian and all my terminators once becasue i failed my Ld Test and since I was in deepstrike formation, they all got hit.
Ok. Drop Pods. You need Drop Pods for the Dreadnoughts. They're worth it. If you dont have cover, a foot-sloggin Dred is the best target in the world for a Lascannon. Try this. Upgrade one Dred to an ironclad. Give him two heavy flamers/CC weapons.
He drops. Blow smoke as you run like hell towards your target. 13 armor can take a punch. BAM! hit em with two HF's and then beat the hell outta them.
He's got Heavy weapons, you need some too. Drop a Pred for some devastators w/ Plasma Cannons and now you've got a recipe for some PM doom. Plus they can get cover saves a helluva lot easier than a Pred can be obscured, so that might add to their lifespan.
Dude, DP's suck. a lot. Ive only got up against slaanesh ones a couple times but they are hard to kill. My only suggestion is complete and utter concentration on it the first turn while your new dred pops in from the sky. An ironclad would more than put up a fight in CC with a DM.
Hope that helped!
Oh and the Librarian thing is kinda a hit or miss thing, but it works for me!

General Fuzzum wrote:Take the librarian everytime. Here's why. Vortex of Doom+Termie Armor=Ultimate Kamikaze Fighter.
Im serious. One time, I deep-striked my librarian and killed 6 decked out super-nobs and a warboss.
if the Obliterators are givin you that much trouble, just add Vortex of Doom for instant dead guys.
If you dont want it to be a total kamikaze mission, have the termies escort him to take some shots, but just remember that you're facing plasma weapons. Oh, and deepstriking and using VoD can sometimes be horrendous. I killed my librarian and all my terminators once becasue i failed my Ld Test and since I was in deepstrike formation, they all got hit.
Ok. Drop Pods. You need Drop Pods for the Dreadnoughts. They're worth it. If you dont have cover, a foot-sloggin Dred is the best target in the world for a Lascannon. Try this. Upgrade one Dred to an ironclad. Give him two heavy flamers/CC weapons.
He drops. Blow smoke as you run like hell towards your target. 13 armor can take a punch. BAM! hit em with two HF's and then beat the hell outta them.
He's got Heavy weapons, you need some too. Drop a Pred for some devastators w/ Plasma Cannons and now you've got a recipe for some PM doom. Plus they can get cover saves a helluva lot easier than a Pred can be obscured, so that might add to their lifespan.
Dude, DP's suck. a lot. Ive only got up against slaanesh ones a couple times but they are hard to kill. My only suggestion is complete and utter concentration on it the first turn while your new dred pops in from the sky. An ironclad would more than put up a fight in CC with a DM.
Hope that helped!
Oh and the Librarian thing is kinda a hit or miss thing, but it works for me!

AHHHHH!!!
- Wall of text crits EzeKK for 1000 -
EzeKK responds with BAD IDEA BASH! - Kills Bad Idea -

Daemon Princes suck. Really. Right. They are so bad being around 160 points and having wings and being an Immortal Warrior with T6 right. Horrible. They also can get Warptime so they blow you up in CC. How about MoN so FNP and T7(6) horrible! Aweful!

Ahem.

The one thing mr above poster is right is about using the Librarian. The wrong part, using him as a VoD bomb. Not the right way.

Try Null Zone and Avenger. Those will help a bit with the DP. But truthfully unless you are taking a LR + Assault terminators (both great with Vulcan and a Libby) giving the Libby Terminator armor means he's alone... Yeah...

Try giving the Dreadnoughts AC / AC or MM + DCCW + HF. Drop Podding them to take out the Obliterators isn't a bad idea but they might due quickly due to the oblits PF's and Meltaguns.

Popping smoke on the rhinos quickly is a good idea also. Really you might want to find points to grab LC sponsons on the other Predator so you can ID the obliterators and using the Speeders also will se them a quick ID death. But before you do that, blow up the PM's rhinos so you can ignore them for a bit.

When the DP comes a knockin, blow him up with Nullzone + a lot of shots. Other than TH/SS terminators this is probably the best way.

Using the Dreads as AC/AC also would help with popping x-ports and allow a lascannon barrage on the Oblits.

I really think with the right tactics you will be fine!

Also, you could grab a LRC and Vulcan for Vulcan Terminators, they are always fun, and then your Speeders are extra killy /drool.

Ok, first off, i meant they suck to fight against.
Two. I like the idea of Null zone, but you have to be within two feet for it to work. If he's anything but Slaanesh, id say go for it. If you can somehow get assault termies in there with nullzone, he'd be pretty dead. Theyd also be deadly against Oblits too.
the question is how.
Ok. I think that AC/AC Dreds is a waste. If he's already got Dakka Preds, i dont think that it would make a big difference. I still say CC Dreds, but if you are really inclined to stay away from them, then go LC/ML Dreds. This would add some lascannons to your arsenal, and missile launchers, even though they wouldnt pierce Oblit armor, they'd still instant death, and frag missiles are always fun.
I still say Devasators. Two plasmas and two Las and you got an armor-piercing party.
Get your Speeders to hit his rhinos. If they're still alive after that, try and get a wound or two on the prince. They are the easiest KP's in the world. Grrr.
I would worry bout the oblits first. I realize that DP's can close the distance fast, but if you can get a good barrage of Las's goin in the first round, you might be able to cripple the Oblits before they cripple you.
Remember, if Oblits take out all your Armor, what can you do against the Prince?!

Actually DPs are T5, and are only T6 with the Mark of Nurgle. This makes slaaneshi (and khorne and tzeentch) DPs extremely vulnerable to small-arms fire because of tT5 combined with only a 3+ save.

If you're shooting anti-tank weaponry at a DP, you're doing it wrong. If you're shooting a DP and they aren't dying pretty easily you're also doing something wrong.

And mark of nurgle does not bestow upon a daemon prince the lovely Feels no pain USR.

Mech up.

Get lascannons, shoot oblits. Theyre ridiculously easy to kill. Each kill is 75 points off his side.

Daemon Prince - just shoot autocannons, heavy bolters, or even bolters at him. Theyre not hard to take down, and in order to use lash they need to be be T5 and within 24". Shouldnt be a problem.

Plagues...dont get into CC with them. Easier said than done, but just make sure you cripple them. Take AP2 fire.

Night Lords wrote:Mech up.

Get lascannons, shoot oblits. Theyre ridiculously easy to kill. Each kill is 75 points off his side.

Daemon Prince - just shoot autocannons, heavy bolters, or even bolters at him. Theyre not hard to take down, and in order to use lash they need to be be T5 and within 24". Shouldnt be a problem.

^ good advice especially on the lash princes. i just feel i need to add that meltaguns will pop a oblit, and since your friend's list only has 2 rhino's its not like your in strong need of a meltagun

Well for starters, your list bleeds KP alot more easily then his does. You have 11-14 KP's to his 8, which means you have to make them all count.

If you bring termies they need a ride. You need a way to make it unmolested to the Oblits, and then hit them with a fat Thundershield charge.

You need more guns. You don't seem to have enough firepower. Maybe some AC or LC razorbacks, or AC dreads. You should be wasting the DP to small arms fire, and a LRC works really well for this as well as giving your termies a ride to the Oblits.

Meltas are decent in that they hurt anything in the list reliably.

DP= Rate Of Fire, Medium Str, any AP.
Plagues=crazy weight of fire, plasma, superior combat units (ie more than one power weapon/fist).
Oblits= str 8+ weapons, the best he can get is 4+ cover vs. stuff like that at range (assuming go to ground is never used).
Rhino= what else is new...

Appreciate the pointers!

Lash isn't really the problem- it's the DP making it to CC. His quantity of attacks + high S + ignore armor/2d6 pen slices things dead. And he gets there quick. As to weight of fire, it takes 14 bolter shots or 8 HB shots to put 1 wound on him. Yet if I am in bolter range, I am probably getting assaulted. Hmmm.....

Getting a ride for termies is expensive in 1500. Do you think it would be worth it? What would complement it?

Razorbacks seem like a double edged sword since I can't hide 10 man squads in them and w/out 10 man squads I don't get the squad weapons....

I am wondering if a vindicator would be a good choice to include. Demolisher cannon makes it a real threat, but one weapon destroyed and its worthless.... OTOH AV 13 is pretty neat and my preds almost never drop to ranged fire (save meltas getting really close).

The lash prince really isn't all that tough. A CC Termie squad will fix him up good.

5 Termies + Vulkan in an LRC
2x Rhinos with 10 Marines
2x Dreads with AC's or MM's

Should give you enough points for 1 squad of speeders and one AC/Las pred.

That should be enough to stop him. The rhino's can screen the Land Raider, the Dreads should either pod in or hang behind the other vehicles for some cover saves. Then when the DP swoops on in, you pounce. Or you drive right up and pounce. You should be concentrating all fire on the oblits to take them out, and then bag the prince, then all you're left facing is PM's.

EDIT:

Make sure the termies have TH/SS, or at least 4 TH/SS and 1 LC.

I think you can beat him with your current list.

How? Stall his PM rhinos in the center, and also hide everything. It's KPs, don't run out there and die (giving away Kill Points), bait him, plunk away at his oblits with lascannon fire, force him to come at you, where you can mass fire and gun him down.

Bringing Devastators against a lash DP has Bad Idea written all over it! They will be pushed around and blown away, stick with the pred!

Yea, mech is the easiest and prob. most competitive way against a lash list.

The only issue is at what rate he kills your transports or you kill his transports and prince.

As others have said, the Daemon Prince has to be shot with a high volume of fire. His thoughness isn't that high (assuming Mark of Slaanesh for Lash of Submission) and his armour save is only 3+, so your Dakka Predators should do alright.

I'd advise against taking Dreadnoughts against this specific Chaos list. Every unit he has is dangerous to your Dreadnoughts in close combat, making your Dreadnoughts nothing but slow moving, overpriced Land Speeders. Perhaps replacing your Dreadnoughts with something else would be a good idea.

starbomber109 wrote:I think you can beat him with your current list.

How? Stall his PM rhinos in the center, and also hide everything. It's KPs, don't run out there and die (giving away Kill Points), bait him, plunk away at his oblits with lascannon fire, force him to come at you, where you can mass fire and gun him down.

This is the best advice you can get without making wholesale changes to certain aspects of your list. I'm not a big fan of telling someone to spend $200 on new units. This can help you against the CSM list in KP missions and still sticking with your list.

Well, I do have a LR Crussader/Redeemer, some assault termies (4 TH/SS 3LC), 2 drop pods, and more tanks (preds, vind).