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The +25 I'm referring to is beyond the battlebox. What models do you think a faction
needs to expand a Warmachine army beyond the basic battlebox? For Retribution and
Mercs, we'll go with the old battlebox as a good starting point for an army. So we're
talking about

Magnus
*Obliterator
*Mangler
*Talon (?)

I forget the midget's stuff.

Kaelyssa
*Manticore
*Chimera
*Griffon

I'm not 100% versed in the new point values, so bear with me, but here's my take on PoM...

Battle box includes
HE Kreoss (-5)
Repenter 4
Revenger 6
Crusader 6

In effect, a total of 11 points.

To build off this to, say, a 35 point level, I would include...
Choir 3
2nd Revenger 6
Hierophant 2
Fire of Salvation 9
Wracks 1
Vassal 2
Total with Battle box: effective 34 points.
Personally, I would also drop the Repenter and Crusader and add in the Avatar for 11 points. This would cut down on Kreoss' focus load, and add in a truly awesome beat stick that got a little better in MKII.
This would bring the total to exactly 35 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, here's a silly question; What is the cutoff size for Epic Warcasters in MKII? I can't seem to find it...

There is no cutoff


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CATACLYSMUS wrote:I'm not 100% versed in the new point values, so bear with me, but here's my take on PoM...

Battle box includes
HE Kreoss (-5)
Repenter 4
Revenger 6
Crusader 6

In effect, a total of 11 points.

To build off this to, say, a 35 point level, I would include...
Choir 3
2nd Revenger 6
Hierophant 2
Fire of Salvation 9
Wracks 1
Vassal 2
Total with Battle box: effective 34 points.
Personally, I would also drop the Repenter and Crusader and add in the Avatar for 11 points. This would cut down on Kreoss' focus load, and add in a truly awesome beat stick that got a little better in MKII.
This would bring the total to exactly 35 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, here's a silly question; What is the cutoff size for Epic Warcasters in MKII? I can't seem to find it...

What if you were going to build this up as a more general force? Your choices seem
to indicate it's for Kreoss. There's also little to nothing in the way of combat infantry.

I'm thinking of making articles that are more general lists: 1-2 warjacks, 1-2 units (Choir
and something to fight with), 1-2 solos.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's refine the rules a bit:

1. Avoid Duplicates
2. May replace one model

My proposal:

Hierophant 2
Vassal 2
Choir 3
Redeemer 6
TFG + UA 8

Points: 21

Retribution
Phoenix heavy myrmidon
Arcanist x 2
Infantry unit of choice with UA - they are all good. Obvious synergies:
-Magehunter strikeforce (Kaelyssa, Ravyn, Garryth)
-Dawnguard Invictors (Ravyn, Vyros, Kaelyssa, Rahn)
-Dawnguard Sentinels (Garryth, Vyros, Rahn, Kaelyssa)
-Houseguard Riflemen (Ravyn, others?)
-Houseguard Halbardiers (everyone, seriously)
-Shyeel battlemages (Rahn, Rahn, uh - Rahn)
Eiryss (either normal or epic)
Magehunter assassin x 2
Whatever caster floats your boat

So examples at 25pts:
Garryth
Chimera
Manticore
Sentinels(max) + UA (Mirage and vengeance on these guys would be awesome)
Magehunter assassin x 2
Arcanist

Kaelyssa
Manticore
Phoenix
Arcanist x 2
Magehunter strikeforce (max) + UA (These guys + backlash, very nasty)
Magehunter assassin

Vyros
Phoenix
Manticore
Arcanist x 2
Sentinels (max) + UA

Magnus wants 'jacks. So, from his starting group:

Magnus
Renegade
Talon
Mangler

He will want three more 'jacks for sure

Nomad- 6
a second Renegade- 6
Mule- 8



That leaves him five points. Perhaps a solo or two is in order (like Gorman Di Wulf and an Ogryn Bokur). Otherwise, take a good look at the Vanguard, he'll be showing up in MkII games way more often than he did in MkI.

Magnus is great with his 'jacks, so you need a lot of them to make it work.

I see what you are saying. I thought you wanted to build based on all contents in the battle box. I'll be back later with some ideas...

P.S. So, you are saying that epic warcasters can be used at any point level!?!?!

I need to put some though into this as my Mercenaries need some major readjustments in MkII.

Magnus the Traitor - Starter box (4 Star Syndicate)

Magnus (-6)
Mangler (8)
Renegade (6)
Talon (4)

= 12/xx

I'd drop the Talon and replace it with a Mariner (8) or Mule (8) and the drop the Mangler for a Nomad. None of the Mercenary Solos or Units are auto includes in my opinion so I'll add units based upon the models I own. A full unit of Steelhead Halberdiers (4/6) are better suited to 25 point games than Croe's Cutthroats (7/10) in my opinion. I'd then throw in a mechanic in the form of Dirty Meg (2) and some support for the Steelhead Halberdiers, Rupert Carvolo - the Piper of Ord (2). Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1) takes me to 25 points. At 15 points I'd use the Jacks from this list without modification.

Magnus the Traitor (4 Star Syndicate)

Magnus (-6)
Nomad (6)
Renegade (6)
Mariner (8)
Steelhead Halberdiers (max) (6)
Dirty Meg (2)
Rupert Carvolo, the Piper of Ord (2)
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator (1)

=25/25

Yeah, sorry, I should have been more clear.

The idea is to help people with purchases based off the battle box. Of course this
should lead into discussions of who their next caster should be...

So we're supposed to build lists that include the Warjacks from the battle boxes?

I probably wouldn't take any more Warjacks with Magnus and I'd spend the extra two points on Gorman De Wolfe.

Although I can't think of any list I'd want to build where I wouldn't swap the Talon for *any* other Warjack. The Mangler is good but the Nomad is often more economical.

Gorten's box was him, a Driller, and three Gunners. 10 points.

Quick and dirty Searforge +25:

10 Shield Gunners - 8
10 Forgeguard - 8
2 Bokurs - 6
Herne and Jonne -3

It's a decent list but vulnerable to things that can only be damaged by magic.

i think retribution should take the 1-2 mymridons (warjacks) as omni-mymridon this why its possible to change what it is without having to buy a new model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

malfred wrote:Yeah, sorry, I should have been more clear.

The idea is to help people with purchases based off the battle box. Of course this
should lead into discussions of who their next caster should be...

i feel this should include optional warcasters for the sake of this being about general list for armies.

To be honest, I never recommend people start Protectorate with the Battle Box.

Crusader is fine and the Revenger is still a great light, but really Kreoss and the Revenger are the top tier things you get from the box. With the Vanquisher, the Reckoner and the Avatar all on the receiving end of HUGE buffs, its hard to ever reach for the crusader unless your just totally in a points crunch without finding a way to pay the extra 2 for one of the other jacks, or 5 for the Avatar.
If you feel like massed heavy jacks is gonna be your style then possibly you'll want some Crusaders, if not, I would hold off until later.

Easy purchases after say Kreoss/Vanquisher(Reckoner)/Revenger would be
-Choir
-Vassal
-Covenant (Now very good, but possibly not needed in every game.)
-Infantry Unit (TFG/KE) (Definitely TFG if your considering Feora for a second caster)
-Paladin of the Wall (Unfortunately probably not Vilmon anymore, although I won't rule him out completely yet. Rhoven & Co might bring more for 1 more point)

Really, its hard for me to find a Menoth unit not to recommend. Some don't work together as well as they have in the past, and yes the Idrians, Devout (/mourn Defensive Strike -2 Mat affect) and Vilamonster aren't as completely slowed as they currently are, but really I don't think there is a single unit that I can say I would _never_ field in Mark2. That to me is a sign that they did a very good job on the new rules.
Its honestly not a good thing when every competitive army list starts out down 165 points because your just handicapping yourself if you don't take two specific units. Things seem much more open ended now.

I'm thinking Vilmon will do okay with multi-paladins for annoying Impervious Walls
supporting your normal annoying to kill Menoth advance.

For Cryx. I would first Drop the defiler. not worth 5. so leaves the BB with 9 points.

Max McThralls.
Necrosurgeon
Skarlock
Pistol Wraith
Necrotech
4 scrap thralls

Leaves 12 for a selection of jacks. I am leaning toward a 2nd Slayer and a nightwretch.

But maybe another Mcthrall unit. Or a few Stalkers. Gotta run Bone jacks at least in pairs.

I am not sure. I am really torn between running a Cryx Swarm and taking multiple Slayers.

Magnus the Warlord
Nomad
Renegade
Mariner
Steelhead Halberdiers (max)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord
Eiryss

25/25

This is a minor improvment on my previously posted pMagnus list. Both Magnus and Eiryss can be swapped out for their Epic versions without changing the rest of the list, giving you lots of flexibility. You can also strip out the infantry and play it as a 15 point list. I'll be running this next week against Khador.

George Spiggott wrote:Magnus the Warlord
Nomad
Renegade
Mariner
Steelhead Halberdiers (max)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord
Eiryss

25/25

This is a minor improvment on my previously posted pMagnus list. Both Magnus and Eiryss can be swapped out for their Epic versions without changing the rest of the list, giving you lots of flexibility. You can also strip out the infantry and play it as a 15 point list. I'll be running this next week against Khador.

I might have to steal this list for my next project.

How would you take it up to 50?

No idea. My Mercs are all over the place in MkII. Maybe next Friday I can tell you how I'd like to take it to 35.

I really need to get my last Soulhunter and a blister of Croe's to make all my units legal before I buy anything new and Hordes is just around the corner. Dirty Meg may sneak in as a quick purchace though.

Last night I discovered that Gorten, two Rockrams and a Driller is 15 points, now I'm getting 'the itch'.

I'm seriously thinking about running an all Crusader list for mark II. That's four heavies at 25 points. Even if they aren't all that great, that's alot of Steel to try to get around! 6 pts actually makes the CXder worth using!.

Played two games with the Magnus list I posted. Lost the first when I failed an assasination against Irusk. and won the second against Asphixious.

I'm still not sure how I'd take the list to 35 points. Maybe drop the Nomad for a Mangler and take Alexia. I'm not sure how I'd fill the last 3 points. Gorman di Wolfe and Reinholt perhaps, not sure yet.

Magnus the Warlord
Mangler
Renegade
Mariner
Steelhead Halberdiers (max)
Alexia & Risen
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord
Eiryss
Gorman di Wolfe
Reinholt

35/35 Work in progress

*bump*

I've settled upon this list which I'll try out tomorrow.

Magnus the Traitor
Mangler
Renegade
Mariner
Steelhead Halberdiers (max)
Alexia & Risen
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord
Eiryss
Ogrun Bokur

35/35

skrulnik wrote:For Cryx. I would first Drop the defiler. not worth 5. so leaves the BB with 9 points.

Max McThralls.
Necrosurgeon
Skarlock
Pistol Wraith
Necrotech
4 scrap thralls

Leaves 12 for a selection of jacks. I am leaning toward a 2nd Slayer and a nightwretch.

But maybe another Mcthrall unit. Or a few Stalkers. Gotta run Bone jacks at least in pairs.

I am not sure. I am really torn between running a Cryx Swarm and taking multiple Slayers.

If you are playing denny you want more infantry, maybe a unit of bane thralls. More jacks requires a different caster like montenabra.


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Gorten 25 pt. highborne


gorten-7
driller+6
gunner+3
gunner+3
Blaster+3
10 forgegaurd+8
6 highshields+5
thor +2
gorman+2

35pts.
Good all comers force.

Well not sure if you ment all battle boxes, or just ret, and mercs. but for khador
FK sorscha
juggernaut
destroyer
beast 09
widow makers

then for 35pts i would add a full unit of iron fang pike men and war dog

Cygnar seems to be:

Long Gunners (full)
Stormblades (full)
Squire


Would you recommend:

Journeyman

OR

Three Stormsmiths

OR

Unit Attachments

I've been thinking about this a lot as I'm trying to get some 40k players to get into WM on a budget. With the Khador box, Widowmakers and full Iron Fang Pikemen and the Unit Attachment makes an easy and effective move to 25. Vlad is an easy replacement to use the same list. With Cygnar, I think full Long Gunners, Journeyman with the Charger and either Reinholdt or a Stormsmith can make a good 25. Haley is an easy 2nd 'caster.