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Page 94 allows a player to place a unit and/or independent character in reserves riding in a non-dedicated transport. Furthermore, it implies, though it does not state explicitly, that you may start a unit deployed on the table similarly riding in a non-dedicated transport.

However, there are no rules telling you that you may specifically start units in non-dedicated transports.

There is also an interpretation of the deployment rules that implicitly allows starting units in non-dedicated transports because those transports are in your deployment zone, therefore any unit embarked in them will also be in your deployment zone, and thus will be legally placed on the table.

So, how do you play it?

I said yes, but there should have been a third option that says "No, you must have explicit permission to do so. Luckily you do, because it says you can deploy in your zone and sure enough your non-dedicated transports are in your deployment zone and therefor a legal place to deploy in."

I said yes you can deploy in transports because of the rules you stated which are what we use.

I agree, it needs a 3rd option.

While we agree with one another, you are making an error that I commonly see.

Explicit permission means that the rules say something explicitly, for example:

"Any unit within 6" of a kustom force field receives a 5+ cover save."

So, how do we figure out how to use a KFF if it embarked on a vehicle?

We look at the rules on page 66, which tells us to check range for non-shooting effects and units embarked on vehicles by measuring to the vehicle's hull.

Therefore, even though we are not explicitly told "If a unit is within 6" of a vehicle with an embarked Big Mek wielding a KFF it receives a 5+ cover save" we can still figure out that that's how the rule works, thus it is implicit that the unit gets the save.

Just because something is "implicit" does not mean "less supported by RAW."

willydstyle wrote:While we agree with one another, you are making an error that I commonly see.

Explicit permission means that the rules say something explicitly, for example:

"Any unit within 6" of a kustom force field receives a 5+ cover save."

So, how do we figure out how to use a KFF if it embarked on a vehicle?

We look at the rules on page 66, which tells us to check range for non-shooting effects and units embarked on vehicles by measuring to the vehicle's hull.

Therefore, even though we are not explicitly told "If a unit is within 6" of a vehicle with an embarked Big Mek wielding a KFF it receives a 5+ cover save" we can still figure out that that's how the rule works, thus it is implicit that the unit gets the save.

Just because something is "implicit" does not mean "less supported by RAW."

When talking about explicit permission, it is best not to use an example where one is also using an implicit rule.

There is no rule which allows one in general to measure to a model embarked on a transport. There is a specific rule for measuring to units embarked on a transport, there are specific rules which define the effects of some rules which would otherwise measure to a model (rules such as CSM icons and IG orders), and there is a specific FAQ entry for area effect psychic powers. There is not, however, a general rule which says what you claim it does to make the KFF from inside a vehicle.

So you're also making use of the extrapolated rule "If I need to measure to a model embarked on a transport, measure to a point on the hull".

Oddly enough, no one wants to extrapolate that rule far enough to include passengers in neighboring transports taking explosion damage, but they want it to include all of their neat rules...

I think there's a huge difference between "within 6" of the mek" and "models in range" one specifically calls out models, while the other refers only to the figure which a model is used to represent.

If the rule said "within 6" of the mek model" then I would say that when embarked on a vehicle the KFF would not function since the model is no longer present.

That's really a subject for another thread though.

Logic is offended at the notion one can buy a non-dedicated transport, yet not start the game with it actually transporting anything... the local convention is "Yes".

Chalk another one up for getting to start with my 20 orks already on their Battlewagon.

Out of curiosity, is this a specific boggle, or are you just curious on the overall reaction to the fairly heavy spew of implicit rules that the rulebooks give us?

Thor665 wrote:Chalk another one up for getting to start with my 20 orks already on their Battlewagon.

Out of curiosity, is this a specific boggle, or are you just curious on the overall reaction to the fairly heavy spew of implicit rules that the rulebooks give us?

I created this thread in response to another thread where a poster asserted that it should not be assumed that most players play that units may start embarked. I felt that it was a safe assumption, so I wanted to "prove" it with a poll.

I voted yes for some of the reasons posted above.

willydstyle wrote:I created this thread in response to another thread where a poster asserted that it should not be assumed that most players play that units may start embarked. I felt that it was a safe assumption, so I wanted to "prove" it with a poll.

Polls prove nothing.

I voted yes because there wasn't an option "We play the way that units may begin in non-dedicated transports and if my opponent doesn't allow me, I go rage and kick him in the nuts".
Clear enough about my opinion`?

nyyman wrote:I voted yes because there wasn't an option "We play the way that units may begin in non-dedicated transports and if my opponent doesn't allow me, I go rage and kick him in the nuts".

Aw man, now I want to change my vote.

Voted A.

Except for WH/DH units whose Codexes specifically state that you cannot start the game in a non-dedicated transport.

DoW

solkan wrote:

willydstyle wrote:While we agree with one another, you are making an error that I commonly see.

Explicit permission means that the rules say something explicitly, for example:

"Any unit within 6" of a kustom force field receives a 5+ cover save."

So, how do we figure out how to use a KFF if it embarked on a vehicle?

We look at the rules on page 66, which tells us to check range for non-shooting effects and units embarked on vehicles by measuring to the vehicle's hull.

Therefore, even though we are not explicitly told "If a unit is within 6" of a vehicle with an embarked Big Mek wielding a KFF it receives a 5+ cover save" we can still figure out that that's how the rule works, thus it is implicit that the unit gets the save.

Just because something is "implicit" does not mean "less supported by RAW."

When talking about explicit permission, it is best not to use an example where one is also using an implicit rule.

There is no rule which allows one in general to measure to a model embarked on a transport. There is a specific rule for measuring to units embarked on a transport, there are specific rules which define the effects of some rules which would otherwise measure to a model (rules such as CSM icons and IG orders), and there is a specific FAQ entry for area effect psychic powers. There is not, however, a general rule which says what you claim it does to make the KFF from inside a vehicle.

So you're also making use of the extrapolated rule "If I need to measure to a model embarked on a transport, measure to a point on the hull".

Oddly enough, no one wants to extrapolate that rule far enough to include passengers in neighboring transports taking explosion damage, but they want it to include all of their neat rules...

The entire point of my post was that the extrapolation was necessary for the KFF embarked on the vehicle, therefore it is an implicit rule... you don't disagree with me.

Actually, willydstyle, I can't quite tell what your point is supposed to be, so I'm left in doubt as to whether I agree with it.

Neither the ability to embark in deployed transports during deployment or the ability to measure to arbitrary models in an embarked unit are present in the rulebook. What distinction are you trying to make?

Simply that the ability to embark in transports can be seen as a rule which is implicitly allowed, but not specifically, or explicitly.

DogOfWar wrote:Except for WH/DH units whose Codexes specifically state that you cannot start the game in a non-dedicated transport.

Sorry, but where in those codexes does it say that?

I think he might be referring to their stipulations that dedicated transports can't be used by other units like it used to be for all armies in 4th.

Arschbombe wrote:I think he might be referring to their stipulations that dedicated transports can't be used by other units like it used to be for all armies in 4th.

You mean 3rd, but yes

There are almost no rules for deployment if you do anything you are making it up. For example you do not need to start in coherency, you may start on impassible terrain, With a land-raider stuck up a building,or with beasts on the top floor of a building ,and so on ...

... in short make something up and stick to it ... I play you may start in vehicles and buildings as they are part/in of your deployment zone

i know people who play the second way. I have always played the first way.

This is mostly defeat TFG from saying ,"ou cannot put your units in that Valkyrie before te game


Agreed the deployment rules are absolutely terrible.

Gwar! wrote:You mean 3rd, but yes

No, I actually mean 4th. Dedicated transports could only carry the unit with which they were bought. It's on pg62 of the 4th edition rules.

----

Back to topic. I support the 1st method in the poll, except for dawn of war missions, because units entering the 1st turn are not in reserves and so can't task organize like in the reserves.

insaniak wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:Except for WH/DH units whose Codexes specifically state that you cannot start the game in a non-dedicated transport.

Sorry, but where in those codexes does it say that?

Of course I just let my friend borrow both my WH and DH Codexes yesterday, typical...

IIRC, it's in a box at the top of the page on the left that has the Rhino, Chimera and Landraider stats. I think it says something to the effect of "a dedicated transport purchased for a unit cannot be used by a unit that did not purchase it." I'm sorry I can't quite remember the exact wording.

Somewhat silly rule, but I think it was to stop people taking oodles of Landraiders and popping all sorts of unusual things into them.

DoW

But that sentence has nothing to do with non-dedicated transports...

DogOfWar wrote:IIRC, it's in a box at the top of the page on the left that has the Rhino, Chimera and Landraider stats. I think it says something to the effect of "a dedicated transport purchased for a unit cannot be used by a unit that did not purchase it." I'm sorry I can't quite remember the exact wording.

Somewhat silly rule, but I think it was to stop people taking oodles of Landraiders and popping all sorts of unusual things into them.

Your remembering the rule correctly. Those codecies prohibit units from embarking on dedicated transports with which they were not bought together. The issue discussed in this thread is use of non-dedicated transports, things like land raiders that are bought as heavy support choices, during deployment. It's clear that units can be placed in these non-dedicated transports in reserves as part of organizing reserves, but it's not made explicitly clear whether they can be deployed on the board inside the such a a transport at the start of the game.

Arschbombe wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:IIRC, it's in a box at the top of the page on the left that has the Rhino, Chimera and Landraider stats. I think it says something to the effect of "a dedicated transport purchased for a unit cannot be used by a unit that did not purchase it." I'm sorry I can't quite remember the exact wording.

Somewhat silly rule, but I think it was to stop people taking oodles of Landraiders and popping all sorts of unusual things into them.

Your remembering the rule correctly. Those codecies prohibit units from embarking on dedicated transports with which they were not bought together. The issue discussed in this thread is use of non-dedicated transports, things like land raiders that are bought as heavy support choices, during deployment. It's clear that units can be placed in these non-dedicated transports in reserves as part of organizing reserves, but it's not made explicitly clear whether they can be deployed on the board inside the such a a transport at the start of the game.

Nice summary

Arschbombe wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:IIRC, it's in a box at the top of the page on the left that has the Rhino, Chimera and Landraider stats. I think it says something to the effect of "a dedicated transport purchased for a unit cannot be used by a unit that did not purchase it." I'm sorry I can't quite remember the exact wording.

Somewhat silly rule, but I think it was to stop people taking oodles of Landraiders and popping all sorts of unusual things into them.

Your remembering the rule correctly. Those codecies prohibit units from embarking on dedicated transports with which they were not bought together. The issue discussed in this thread is use of non-dedicated transports, things like land raiders that are bought as heavy support choices, during deployment. It's clear that units can be placed in these non-dedicated transports in reserves as part of organizing reserves, but it's not made explicitly clear whether they can be deployed on the board inside the such a a transport at the start of the game.

Oh I know. That's why I voted A.

I brought up the point about the DH/WH transports because I thought it would be an interesting, related point, but I see that the consensus is that it was not.

DoW

The deployment rules are overall terribly written ; one should if possible go through and point out some other errors.


i think there are some other instances of this in the deployment with regard to breaking coherency etc..

Hollismason wrote: i think there are some other instances of this in the deployment with regard to breaking coherency etc..

Or our old friend Shrike from the newest SM codex. He grants his squad Infiltrate but the deployment rules don't actually seem to allow joining him to a squad before placing them on the board. It was probably intended to work - in the previous codex he could take a retinue and infiltrate with them.

The rules issues for several characters, notably Shrike and Karandras, would be resolved if independent characters could join units before the units were deployed on the table. Say, perhaps, with the addition of a "prepare your army" setup step right after choosing sides. That would also be a convenient time in which to embark units into transports, I think.