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So on the entry for Thunderwolves in the spacewolf codex it says they have T 5 not a T of 4(5) but for character entries when they equip thunderwolves they are T 4(5) not 5. Therefore it takes Str 10 shots to instant death the normal thunderwolves but a STR 8 shot to kill a character on said wolf. Do you think this is an oversight or how it is supposed to be.

dumplingman wrote:So on the entry for Thunderwolves in the spacewolf codex it says they have T 5 not a T of 4(5) but for character entries when they equip thunderwolves they are T 4(5) not 5. Therefore it takes Str 10 shots to instant death the normal thunderwolves but a STR 8 shot to kill a character on said wolf. Do you think this is an oversight or how it is supposed to be.

Where does it say Characters are T4(5)?

In my codex anyway, it says it adds +1 Toughness to the models Profile. This is not the same as the Toughness from a Bike, who's rules say it does not affect instant death, but a straight up "adds [...] +1 Toughness [...] to his profile".
Furthermore, as you said, Thunderwolf Cav and Canis are both T5 not T4(5).

No really, where do you get the idea they are T4(5)???

Of course, all this and more is are neatly covered in my Unofficial Space Wolves FAQ

Both the Mark of Nurgle and the Bike rules specifically say they do not effect Instant Death, they are the only two situations I can think of where a model gains a bracketed toughness from wargear.

So in this case I think the characters would just be straight T5.

Does it show a modified toughness for the characters on a wolf? If not, how can one discount the first two sentences of paragraph three of Instant Death "Some models gcan gain improvements to their Toughness by using wargear items... When it comes to instant death, such bonuses do not count." It would seem to me that the burden on the wargear would be to demonstrate that the bonuses are included for instant death if no profile is shown.

The book says the model recieves +1 toughness.

The book also states that Canis (the mounted SC) has a straight up 5 for a toughness.

The regular marines on Wolves also have a 5 for toughness.

I think it's reasonable to believe that, unless FAQ'd, it was the developers intent to allow other mounted models to enjoy a 5 toughness without a parenthesis.

solkan - But good point. I didn't remember that line from the big book. A thunderwolf mount is certainly classified as wargear, so because of your revelation I'm now entirely confused. I think intent wise, it's supposed to be T5 but the rules say it should be treated as T(5).

TWC and Canis are clearly T5, it's in their profile that way, and only S10 or higher will ID. For characters that take the mount as an upgrade, it doesn't say anything about ID. I would say it's more sporting and conservative to play it as T4(5) like a bike, but I also wouldn't denounce someone as a filthy dirty cheater for playing them as T5.

dumplingman wrote:So on the entry for Thunderwolves in the spacewolf codex it says they have T 5 not a T of 4(5) but for character entries when they equip thunderwolves they are T 4(5) not 5. Therefore it takes Str 10 shots to instant death the normal thunderwolves but a STR 8 shot to kill a character on said wolf. Do you think this is an oversight or how it is supposed to be.

This is an oversight. Nowhere does it say, nor imply at all, that Thunderwolf mounts would function in a similar manner to a bike or mark of nurgle in respect to the bonus to Toughness that comes with purchasing one for a character. Thus, there is no reason to even consider anything other than exactly what the rules for the Thunderwolf entry say. The rules say +1T and since there is nothing to even suggest otherwise, the character receives a straight +1T that will apply to everything including instant death.

Caffran9 wrote:

dumplingman wrote:So on the entry for Thunderwolves in the spacewolf codex it says they have T 5 not a T of 4(5) but for character entries when they equip thunderwolves they are T 4(5) not 5. Therefore it takes Str 10 shots to instant death the normal thunderwolves but a STR 8 shot to kill a character on said wolf. Do you think this is an oversight or how it is supposed to be.

This is an oversight. Nowhere does it say, nor imply at all, that Thunderwolf mounts would function in a similar manner to a bike or mark of nurgle in respect to the bonus to Toughness that comes with purchasing one for a character. Thus, there is no reason to even consider anything other than exactly what the rules for the Thunderwolf entry say. The rules say +1T and since there is nothing to even suggest otherwise, the character receives a straight +1T that will apply to everything including instant death.

My point is that the rulebook says that toughness modifiers from wargear do not change the toughness value for the purposes of instant death. Where does it say that the +1 Toughness from the Thunderwolf applies to instant death?

solkan wrote:My point is that the rulebook says that toughness modifiers from wargear do not change the toughness value for the purposes of instant death. Where does it say that the +1 Toughness from the Thunderwolf applies to instant death?

Codex > Rulebook hurrrr

solkan wrote:My point is that the rulebook says that toughness modifiers from wargear do not change the toughness value for the purposes of instant death. Where does it say that the +1 Toughness from the Thunderwolf applies to instant death?

I have to agree with this statement. While the SW Codex certainly implies that the +1 T affects ID (since Canis and the TWC entry both are T5), it doesn't state that it does. This is a case of the BRB and Codex being in conflict.

And as per GW, when the codex and BRB conflict, the codex wins.

Similar follow up question, Thunder wolf upgrade for IC gives them a +1 S. For Power fist and Thunderhammers, there is a big difference between S9 and S10.

I don't have my book infront of me, but doesn't S upgrades come AFTER the wargear modifies the strength. Furious charge and S Scorpians I know get hit for that one.

From what I can see, IC that get a thunder upgrade are treated as base T 5 for ID, otherwise the codex would have mentioned it and would put them in line with the regular Thunders for ID purposes. Also, I think an IC with a power fist and mount are only S9.

Sucks for them, guess it balances out that you can get one to outflank...

solkan wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:

dumplingman wrote:So on the entry for Thunderwolves in the spacewolf codex it says they have T 5 not a T of 4(5) but for character entries when they equip thunderwolves they are T 4(5) not 5. Therefore it takes Str 10 shots to instant death the normal thunderwolves but a STR 8 shot to kill a character on said wolf. Do you think this is an oversight or how it is supposed to be.

This is an oversight. Nowhere does it say, nor imply at all, that Thunderwolf mounts would function in a similar manner to a bike or mark of nurgle in respect to the bonus to Toughness that comes with purchasing one for a character. Thus, there is no reason to even consider anything other than exactly what the rules for the Thunderwolf entry say. The rules say +1T and since there is nothing to even suggest otherwise, the character receives a straight +1T that will apply to everything including instant death.

My point is that the rulebook says that toughness modifiers from wargear do not change the toughness value for the purposes of instant death. Where does it say that the +1 Toughness from the Thunderwolf applies to instant death?

No, the rule book says that upgrades from SOME wargear are not counted for purposes of instakill determination. It's not a blanket statement that all wargear upgrades to toughness do not count towards instakilling.

Some pieces of wargear (bikes, for example) give a slashed toughness value like 4(5), while others (like destroyer bodies for Necrons) give a straight increase to the statline.

Chubs wrote:Similar follow up question, Thunder wolf upgrade for IC gives them a +1 S. For Power fist and Thunderhammers, there is a big difference between S9 and S10.

I don't have my book infront of me, but doesn't S upgrades come AFTER the wargear modifies the strength. Furious charge and S Scorpians I know get hit for that one.

From what I can see, IC that get a thunder upgrade are treated as base T 5 for ID, otherwise the codex would have mentioned it and would put them in line with the regular Thunders for ID purposes. Also, I think an IC with a power fist and mount are only S9.

Sucks for them, guess it balances out that you can get one to outflank...

Your last question is the second side of the same coin. Either you take it as 4(5) on strength AND toughness both or a flat 5 on both. Meaning you get str 10 with fists/hammers when mounted on a TW if you are playing them as straight 5's.

At my FLGS I will be playing it the same on characters as the TWC and Canis, and everyone agreed that was the intention. I assume the vast majority of stores will be playing it the same.

It is clear what the intentions of the SW codex intended, but people will still argue against T5 for the purpose of winning and advantage. I do not play SW's, but agree that I will have to use a rail gun or wraithlord to outright kill a wolf lord on thunderwolf mount.

Thanks for answering the question I just wasn't sure which way it was supposed to be ruled. Thanks guys, Str 10 ID it is for characters mounted on them.

Saldiven wrote:

solkan wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:

dumplingman wrote:So on the entry for Thunderwolves in the spacewolf codex it says they have T 5 not a T of 4(5) but for character entries when they equip thunderwolves they are T 4(5) not 5. Therefore it takes Str 10 shots to instant death the normal thunderwolves but a STR 8 shot to kill a character on said wolf. Do you think this is an oversight or how it is supposed to be.

This is an oversight. Nowhere does it say, nor imply at all, that Thunderwolf mounts would function in a similar manner to a bike or mark of nurgle in respect to the bonus to Toughness that comes with purchasing one for a character. Thus, there is no reason to even consider anything other than exactly what the rules for the Thunderwolf entry say. The rules say +1T and since there is nothing to even suggest otherwise, the character receives a straight +1T that will apply to everything including instant death.

My point is that the rulebook says that toughness modifiers from wargear do not change the toughness value for the purposes of instant death. Where does it say that the +1 Toughness from the Thunderwolf applies to instant death?

No, the rule book says that upgrades from SOME wargear are not counted for purposes of instakill determination. It's not a blanket statement that all wargear upgrades to toughness do not count towards instakilling.

Some pieces of wargear (bikes, for example) give a slashed toughness value like 4(5), while others (like destroyer bodies for Necrons) give a straight increase to the statline.

actualy in the BRB it says some models can gain imrovements to thiertoughness unsing wargear. Whenit comes to instant death such bonuses do not count

Saldiven - it IS a blanket ignore of modiifiers, as the rulebook defines what it means by a modifer and ID states it ignores them.

You dont have to have the X(Y) notation to "count as" a modifier - this is only a reminded. What you DO need to NOT count as a modifier is a specific rule, such as the destroyer body, which state it alters your basic stat and is not a modification to it.