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Basically, for every psyker within a certain range of the assassin, he gets a +1 to his number of shots. If the psykers are embarked in a transport, and still within range, does the assassin still get the extra shots because of his special rule? It was questioned against the list I have, so i figured i would see what others think and go from there.

TheDrifter wrote:Basically, for every psyker within a certain range of the assassin, he gets a +1 to his number of shots. If the psykers are embarked in a transport, and still within range, does the assassin still get the extra shots because of his special rule? It was questioned against the list I have, so i figured i would see what others think and go from there.

I would say yes. Technically they are within that range, and the transport rules only disallow shooting/assaulting embarked units.

Thats how I feel as well. His argument was that he cant see the model or shoot at the model so how can the model be used in the assassins bonus. Well thats like saying if the mdoels not on the table how does it shoot out of the transport...? And he seems to have it in his head that he needs word from GW themselves...and not even a written repsonse. A GW member coming up to the table and makign the call. Its...i wont even go into it...

Cant wait to hear from others on this.

Lets say you have a guard army with 2 psyker squads in chimeras... Each is full strength, yes your cullexus will have 18 additional shots but your mighty psykers are going to be trying to succeed on 7 leadership also so have at it. Explain that to your opponent and he should mellow out. You pumped your 100+ pt cost assassin by taking 300+ points of psykers that are less effective.

DAaddict wrote:You pumped your 100+ pt cost assassin by taking 300+ points of psykers that are less effective.

20 shots? That should be enough to wipe out a ten-man Terminator squad in one burst. Granted the short range and required units make it a one-trick pony but it's still very nasty.

I'd rather use those PBS to make a Callidus insta-kill that Terminator squad with her template weapon, ofc. More efficient all around as there's no chance to kill the assassin before she can shoot.

I would say that your psyker does get the additional shots, but I think DAaddict has it right that it's a huge waste of points for something not all that stellar.

If you want to cause some pain with an assassin, I'd go with the Callidus since she matches up rather well with the PBS's Weaken Resolve.

Pop her up right next to a squad of Terminators/Nobs/Ogryns/Obliterators. Lower their Ld to 4 or less with the PBS then shoot your assassin's Neural Gauntlet at them. Automatic hit with a template weapon that wounds on 2s (counts as S8), instant death to anything Ld4 (or T4, depending on whether you use the FAQ or not) and no armour save since it's AP1. Then, to add insult to injury, charge in at I5 WS5 for 4 attacks that allow no save whatsoever.

Yes please.

DoW

EDIT: Ninja'd by Spetulhu! Curses!

TheDrifter wrote:Thats how I feel as well. His argument was that he cant see the model or shoot at the model so how can the model be used in the assassins bonus. Well thats like saying if the mdoels not on the table how does it shoot out of the transport...? And he seems to have it in his head that he needs word from GW themselves...and not even a written repsonse. A GW member coming up to the table and makign the call. Its...i wont even go into it...

Cant wait to hear from others on this.

What in the world are you talking about???

Che-Vito wrote:

TheDrifter wrote:Thats how I feel as well. His argument was that he cant see the model or shoot at the model so how can the model be used in the assassins bonus. Well thats like saying if the mdoels not on the table how does it shoot out of the transport...? And he seems to have it in his head that he needs word from GW themselves...and not even a written repsonse. A GW member coming up to the table and makign the call. Its...i wont even go into it...

Cant wait to hear from others on this.

What in the world are you talking about???

No Idea.

Anyway, yes you do get the extra shots, because of the rule on Page 66 (iirc) that says to measure to the hull whenever you need to measure a range involving an embarked model.

Page 66 says that one can measure to the transport when determining the distance to an embarked unit, not to embarked models.

The Culexus assassin rule depends on the number of psyker models which are within range. That means that you are trying to measure to models, and that doesn't work.

Cases in point:
1. The CSM codex includes an additional rule to deal with embarked icon bearers.
2. The main rulebook FAQ includes a statement describing how to deal with area effect psychic abilities.
3. The IG codex includes a statement about measuring command distance in transports.

None of those statements would be at all necessary in the presence of a general rule for measuring distances to embarked models.

Just to go further, even if one knows the distance from the assassin to the psyker battle squad, that says nothing about the distance to any particular psyker in that squad. It's entirely possible that the closest model could be overseer, so one can't even be certain that the closest model is a psyker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are advocating the extrapolation of the rules to include measuring to models in tranports, there are three scenarios to consider:

You have two transports side by side, both of which contain psyker battle squads. One transport explodes, and the result is that every model within 6" takes a hit.

A daemon uses the 'Aura of Decay' ranged weapon (Note: Not a psychic ability, so not covered by the FAQ) to hit every enemy model within 6".

Your fully laden transport carrying a psyker battle squad is 6" from a Culexus assassin.

Do the psyker battle squad members become Schroedinger's Psyker Battle Squad and somehow to not be in range of the first two effects and yet still be in range of the third effect?

solkan wrote:
If you are advocating the extrapolation of the rules to include measuring to models in tranports, there are three scenarios to consider:

You have two transports side by side, both of which contain psyker battle squads. One transport explodes, and the result is that every model within 6" takes a hit.

A daemon uses the 'Aura of Decay' ranged weapon (Note: Not a psychic ability, so not covered by the FAQ) to hit every enemy model within 6".

Your fully laden transport carrying a psyker battle squad is 6" from a Culexus assassin.

Do the psyker battle squad members become Schroedinger's Psyker Battle Squad and somehow to not be in range of the first two effects and yet still be in range of the third effect?

Except all of your examples given are not applicable! Congrats.

Units inside a transport cannot be targeted by shooting or assault. In the case of a vehicle exploding, it is again, resolved as an attack against the vehicle as opposed to the squad within. The vehicle has to be targeted until the squad either disembarks, or has been wrecked/destroyed.

The power that the OP is referring to is similar to a leadership "bubble", would you say that units that are embarked in a vehicle can provide Leadership bonuses? Or that IG cannot give orders while embarked in vehicles?

solkan, yes, the model do indeed become schroedinger's battle squad. They cannot be targeted by any shooting attack that doesn't have a special exception, which is why the first 2 fail, but the area-of-effect thingummy that powers up the culexus is in no way a shooting attack.

Che-Vito wrote:
Units inside a transport cannot be targeted by shooting or assault. In the case of a vehicle exploding, it is again, resolved as an attack against the vehicle as opposed to the squad within. The vehicle has to be targeted until the squad either disembarks, or has been wrecked/destroyed.

The power that the OP is referring to is similar to a leadership "bubble", would you say that units that are embarked in a vehicle can provide Leadership bonuses? Or that IG cannot give orders while embarked in vehicles?

You are mistaken on several points.

First, the vehicle explosion effect is not a shooting attack. When the vehicle explodes, every model within range suffers a hit. Period. The rules say nothing about requiring anything other than being within range of the exploding vehicle. If the psyker battle squad is in range for the assassin, why aren't they in range for this rule?

Second, similarly Aura of Decay says "All enemy models within 6" are hit." A nurgle herald could see the transport, know that it was in range, and then declare the attack against the vehicle. The attack goes off and then if the models inside the transport are within range they would be hit, even though they weren't directly targeted, just like if the herald were to target an enemy model 3" in one direction and there was another model in a different unit also within 6". If the psyker battle squad is in range for the purposes of the assassin, why aren't they in range for this effect?

Third, IG officers are not allowed to give orders in vehicles because the rules for giving orders says so. However, certain IG vehicles have special rules allowing orders to be given and defining how orders work in that situation.

So my point remains: There is no general rule allowing one to measure to embarked models. There are instead a collection of specific rules allow things which would not otherwise work because of that missing rule to work in some other fashion (such as measuring to a point on the vehicle).

If you feel that I am incorrect, please point out the rule in the rulebook which allows measuring to embarked models.

solkan wrote:If you feel that I am incorrect, please point out the rule in the rulebook which allows measuring to embarked models.

Page 66 "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

Units are made of models. Models are part of units.

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:If you feel that I am incorrect, please point out the rule in the rulebook which allows measuring to embarked models.

Page 66 "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

Units are made of models. Models are part of units.

The range to a unit says nothing at all about the range to the individual models in the unit.

A have a regular unit on the table and fire at another unit on the table. If the range is 4", then all that means is that the nearest model of the target unit is 4" away. It gives absolutely no indication of where or how far away the other models are.

So, given that the unit is X inches away because that's where the transport is, what's the range to the individual models?

solkan wrote:So, given that the unit is X inches away because that's where the transport is, what's the range to the individual models?

X inches perhaps?

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:So, given that the unit is X inches away because that's where the transport is, what's the range to the individual models?

X inches perhaps?

Saddly, there is no way to know. By the rules as written, there are no rules for determining the distance to the individual embarked models.

Look back through the YMDK archives for when the 5th edition rulebook came out, and there were running discussions about whether or not daemons could snipe models out of sanctuaried land raiders, back in the time before the "Don't use psychic powers on transports, the rules are too messy" answer was added to the FAQ.

The distance to a unit is at best coincidentally the distance to one or more models in the unit. Because of that, there's no way to determine the range to the models in the unit. And that means that using the rulebook there's no way for the Culexus Assassin to get the bonus from an embarked psyker battle squad, and no way for the models of an embarked unit to be in range of area effects. They may still be subject to the effects since their unit is within range, but it cannot be determined whether the individual models are.

solkan wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:So, given that the unit is X inches away because that's where the transport is, what's the range to the individual models?

X inches perhaps?

Saddly, there is no way to know. By the rules as written, there are no rules for determining the distance to the individual embarked models.

Look back through the YMDK archives for when the 5th edition rulebook came out, and there were running discussions about whether or not daemons could snipe models out of sanctuaried land raiders, back in the time before the "Don't use psychic powers on transports, the rules are too messy" answer was added to the FAQ.

The distance to a unit is at best coincidentally the distance to one or more models in the unit. Because of that, there's no way to determine the range to the models in the unit. And that means that using the rulebook there's no way for the Culexus Assassin to get the bonus from an embarked psyker battle squad, and no way for the models of an embarked unit to be in range of area effects. They may still be subject to the effects since their unit is within range, but it cannot be determined whether the individual models are.

If we use your logic, there is one flaw:

For the assassin, what if the entire vehicle is within that range? I would say that you could without a doubt verify that the entire unit is within range, if they entire transport is!

Range to the hull is equal to range to the entire unit, according to p. 66 of the BRB (last sentence before the bullet points on the right). That means if the hull is within range, all the models in the unit are within range. This means ignoring a lot of what's said about models and units. That's probably not too difficult to do.

Whether to count passengers as anything at all with respect to special rules or wargear is still unknown. So far, it seems one way, inside out rather than outside in.

I think, it's perfectly acceptable to use the finding range to an embarked unit for an arbitrary thing represented by a model, for example, if you are within 6" of a transport with a necron in it (pointless I know) you could be said to be within 6" of a necron, but not within 6" of a necron model, because the model is not actually there.

That's my take on the matter atleast, because while it's not explicitly stated you can measure to a single member of a unit in a transport using the hull, I think the fact you can measure to the whole unit implies that every component part of that unit is measured to by doing so.

I do agree that if something specifically asks for models in it's wording though, since the models aren't on the table, you can't say they can be measured to.

Che-Vito wrote:
If we use your logic, there is one flaw:

For the assassin, what if the entire vehicle is within that range? I would say that you could without a doubt verify that the entire unit is within range, if they entire transport is!

Six inches will put a rhino and most transports completely within range of a vehicle explosion and Aura of Decay, too. If you don't want to apply the rule consistently, I might suspect your motives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gaylord500 wrote:Range to the hull is equal to range to the entire unit, according to p. 66 of the BRB (last sentence before the bullet points on the right). That means if the hull is within range, all the models in the unit are within range. This means ignoring a lot of what's said about models and units. That's probably not too difficult to do.

Whether to count passengers as anything at all with respect to special rules or wargear is still unknown. So far, it seems one way, inside out rather than outside in.

Wow, I've never seen someone try to argue that a member of a unit was x" away for one rule and not x" away for a different rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drunkspleen wrote:I think, it's perfectly acceptable to use the finding range to an embarked unit for an arbitrary thing represented by a model, for example, if you are within 6" of a transport with a necron in it (pointless I know) you could be said to be within 6" of a necron, but not within 6" of a necron model, because the model is not actually there.

That's my take on the matter atleast, because while it's not explicitly stated you can measure to a single member of a unit in a transport using the hull, I think the fact you can measure to the whole unit implies that every component part of that unit is measured to by doing so.

I do agree that if something specifically asks for models in it's wording though, since the models aren't on the table, you can't say they can be measured to.

Have the members of the unit somehow stopped being models? Page three of the rules explains that units consist of models. When the Culexus Assassin rule talks about psykers, it is referring to psyker models, because that's all there is. So your position that its somehow possible to measure to the members of a unit without measuring to the models is absurd.