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Lemme just say I LOVE crisis suits, have a whole blog about them. So, basically I like to use them just a bit
HQ:
Shas’el, twin missile, plasma rifle, HW MT, HW DC, x2 SD 123pts

Elites:
Plasma Bodygaurd: Team leader, twin missile, plasma, Bonding knife, HW MT, HW DC, x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui, plasma, missile, multi tracker, x1 shas’ui twin missile, plasma pts 233
(joined to HQ)

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, flame, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, target lock
182 pts

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, flame, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, target lock
182 pts

Troops:
X6 fire warriors, rifles 60 pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

X12 Kroot 84 pts (infiltrate for PF fish)

X11 Kroot, x 6 kroot hounds 113pts

Fast:
Pathfinders x7, shas’ui, bonding knife 99pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

Heavy:
HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 170 pts

HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 170 pts

Broadsides x2, ASS, team leader, HW DC, x2 shield drones, 195 pts

Total:1851 pts

Came up with this, has worked well for me in the past, I have actually found it more useful to have kroot compared to lots of FW, simply because they have proved unreliable to me and kroot in cover against non flamers is just funny.

C&C most welcome - list updated

Yay I don't have to explain why FW suck to someone!

I might just go min on the firewarriors with just a 6 man squad no upgrades. Then you can put those points into maybe another kroot or some hounds for the first squad.

I think that SMS would be better on the HH truthfully.

I think that you need 2x Kroot squads like how you have the hound squad. Other than that, looks fine really.

Well, the only reason I only had 12 kroot in the one squad, was to mount them in the Pathfinder Warfish after they infiltrate and scout moves. Cheap mounted unit that dropped on cover objectives is gross, not to mention 5+ cover GtG in the open.

Addressing SMS on HH: THis has been a widely debated subject for me. I think in terms of this, with Multitracker, I can only move and fire one weapon, primarily being the Railgun, but makes better use of the MT if that gets taken out. At the same time I think, if I move and fire the HH, most likely the HH will be in the open or close to, and therefore it would be better to stay stationary and fire everything... I just dont know, its really buggin me...

Updated list, watcha think?
HQ:
Shas’el, twin-linked missile pods, flamer, HW DC x2 shield drone (joins to deathrain) 102pts

Shas’el, twin-linked missile pods, Positional relay, HW DC x2 shield drone (joins to deathrain) 113pts

Elites:
Deathrain unit 1: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui with twin missle, flame 176 pts(commander 1 bodygaurd)

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missle, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui with twin missle, flame 176 pts(commander 2 bodygaurd)

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missle, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui with twin missle, flame 176 pts

Troops:
X6 fire warriors, rifles 60 pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

X12 Kroot 84 pts (infiltrate for PF fish)

X12 Kroot, x 6 kroot hounds 120pts

Fast:
Pathfinders x6, shas’ui, bonding knife 87pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

Heavy:
HH, SMS, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker 175 pts

HH, SMS, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker 175 pts

Broadsides x2, ASS, team leader, HW DC, x2 shield drones 165 pts

Total:1849 pts

I think its relatively solid, any ideas?

What's with the missile pod/flamer fetish? Everybody in your area plays orks?

While awaiting your reasoning, I suggest making room for target locks on the hammerheads so that when they move 6" they can pop a vehicle and still spit at some infantry. I prefer the burst cannons (10 points cheaper for 2 extra shots? I'm down with that) but I can see why you might prefer the SMS on terrain clogged boards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you're also missing something in the points cost of your battlesuit teams. By my count it should be something like this:

Base cost - 25
Twin missiles - 18
Flamer - 4

x3 = 141

Team leader - 5
Bonding Knife - 5
Drones - 30

= 181

or am I miscounting something myself?

Huh, your right, I think I forgot to add the costs for twin linked on one or something?? I like flamers on suits because in almost every situation the enemy gets close to or into CC and massed flamers are great for killing exposed enemy units. Lots prefer different things on deathrains, like targeting arrays and blacksun filters and such, I just think flamers are a great backup in a tight spot...

well, good thing you saw my numbers were wrong... now, what to change, I guess I will lose one kroot in the large squad, and have one HH with burst cannons to give the appropriate points, or I could lose both HHs SMS as well, and give them both target locks... decisions..., or I could lose just the HH's SMSs and add one more hound to the large squad... what does everyone think?

The flamers are not really what I was getting at. What I meant was - why so many deathrain suits in the first place? They're good for killing monstrous creatures and transports, but they're poo vs heavy infantry like marines. You'll have a very hard time dislodging tactical squads from objectives with this list, and god help you if you find yourself against plague marines. I'm not advocating the plasma/fusion setup (because it sucks), but there are too many 3+ armies to not have some plasma. If you're against plasma for some reason (non conformity? being different often means being worse in this game) at least put them on your naturally high BS commanders to get the best mileage out of it. I typically run without pathfinders at lower point values and to make up for it my plasma/missile team is a bodyguard with targeting arrays so the whole unit is BS4. It's pricey, but it melts faces and doesn't need support to do so.

Definitely would use them as a cheaper normal squad at point values that support pathfinders though.

Regarding the hammerheads, consider this:

If I'm moving 12", I will only fire the railgun. Duh.
If I'm moving 6", I can shoot all of my guns.
6 shots are better than 4.
More times than not, your target's armor save will be as good or better than their cover save.

Just some food for thought

Ok, gave it some thought, forgot about damn plague marines, dont know how that happened, drew up a new list:

HQ:
Shas’el, missile pod, plasma rifle, targeting array, HW MT, HW DC, x2 SD, bonding knife 132pts

Shas’el, missile pod, plasma rifle, targeting array, HW MT, HW DC, x2 SD 127pts

Elites:
Plasma Bodygaurd: x2 shas’ui, plasma, missile, multi tracker 124 pts
(joined with both HQs)

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui with twin missile, flame 181 pts

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui with twin missile, flame 181 pts

Troops:
X6 fire warriors, rifles 60 pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

X12 Kroot 84 pts (infiltrate for PF fish)

X12 Kroot, x 6 kroot hounds 120pts

Fast:
Pathfinders x6, shas’ui, bonding knife 87pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

Heavy:
HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker 165 pts

HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker 165 pts

Broadsides x2, ASS, team leader, HW DC, x2 shield drones 165 pts

Total:1831 pts

leaves 20 pts to spare, what to use them for though....

Your broadsides are 30 points too low so you are actually 10 points over.

Personally I think your command squad is a bit wasteful right now since you would really like markerlights for the shas'uis but not for your shas'els. I propose that you twinlink one of your first shas'els' weapons and reduce your second shas'el to an 'ui and use the spare points to buy a second pathfinder squad of 5-6 man. With two markerlight hits the squad will be killier and cheaper than your earlier squad and the extra pathfinders make sure you get these hits and have some over for broadsides, railheads and stripping cover.

Overall you have 14 KPs. For 1850 this seems to be a good amount for Tau. Overall however your strategy does not seem to come through that well. You are going suit heavy but are you trying for a hybrid list or a mechanized list? Maybe even a gun line? This list needs to synch with your play style. Now for the army list:


Crisis Suits:
Since you are going suit heavy you will want 3 teams of 3, each with a bonding knife and a team lead. Give each squad a specific purpose. One should hunt transports and be a Deathrain squad. Give them flamers for backup. Fireknives are still great at a general role. The third should be given tank hunters, terminator hunters or some other role. I generally run a squad of stealths as a Stealth Marker Team. This loses a squad of Crisis for me.

HQs
You're HQs follow the roles for your Crisis suits. If you run a ninja list give a commander Iridium Armor, PosRelay, Stim Injectors, 2 Shield Drones and whatever long range loadout you want. This guy stays in cover and out of danger until you pull in all of your units to take out the enemy. The commander is also the best place for your Special Issue Gear.

Troops
Firewarriors are great at taking out loads of guard. You can get off a few shots with them but then it is best to jump them in a fish and head out to an objective for alter in the game. Keeping them in reserve also helps quite a bit for later in the game.

Kroot are best used in large squads. In a squad of 12 they will be worthless. AP6 will only harm Orks. AP5 harms Guard and Orks. Having 20 S4 AP6 shots will change that quite a bit however. Adding Hounds in for an outflanking assault threat will funnel the enemy down the middle of the board as well. With small squads you will die to a large majority of things since I3 will go second majority of the time and no armor means they will be dead if they are hit.

Heavy Slots
The hammerheads need to be given Target Locks. Target Lock allow you to take out a tank and an infantry squad nearby in a single turn. Using the right weapon for the right job is amazing. If you are firing at a tank with your Railgun there is no reason to be firing the burst cannons at it. Unless it is a Rhino then the burst cannons will not be doing anything at all - and even then they will only be glancing it.

Broadsides work best in teams of 2. Drop the shield drones and drop a hammerhead. Add another 2 broadsides. Keep them far from each other and allow them to control a separate side of the baord. The enemy will have to spread their forces out to take on your two fire bases. Most likely during the time they take to move from one side to the other they will be destroyed ot the game will end.

Alright, lemme give you some reasoning and some basis on how I play:

I fully understand how the command squad may seem like a waste especially with the arrays and all, and markerlights being something more likely to be used. I have already considered this and will most likely be twin linking the missle pods instead as I see them being used far more during a game then the plasma, as well, I know that when the plasma is going to be used, markerlights will no doubt be involved as plasma rifles imply something close that needs to be dead.

I usually do a technique I developed called a board side rush, keep in mind this techniqued is used differently with spearhead deployment, but for standard long board side deployment it works the same. The simple version being that I focus neraly 80% of my force to one of the narrow board edges as this would force-focus an enemy's units into a bottleneck down one side, allowing me to take advantage of the disposition that most mech armies have which is vehicle roadblocking. Literally attempting to disable or destroy his close units as to provide interference for the rest of his army. This also puts my entire force constantly on the move, and allows my crisis squads to use my fish's and HH's as cover while moving.

Ok so back to the list:

The command squad only has 2'ui as to be immediatly joined to the commanders, one of which has a knife and all of which have drones to use for heavy weapon shots that instakill suits. Im still working out this unit, and the reason I chose another el instead of a ui team leader, is that with the proper attachments, the ui team leader is not more cost effective than the el. At least not to my eyes.

I LOVE deathrains, the name, their function and the reliability. It is a unit that, individually for slightly more than a terminator, you have short barrelled autocannons that reroll, and a flamethrower. personal preference, so these arent going anywhere.

The 12 man kroot unit is simply there to take the pathfinders devilfish, to provide a cheap scoring unit inside the fish, that in cover, is far superior cost wise and survivability wise than a firewarrior squad.

I dont think I am going to run 2 broadside units as a HH can be more versatile, as once armor is no longer available as a target, Broads seem to lose a great deal of their usefullness, HHs are also far more mobile.

With regards to your comment as firewarriors being excellent at taking out gaurd, their is so much cover available to units these days, that AP for infantry units almost seems pointless, granted not all the time, but for something as fragile as gaurd, I would be surprised if they didn't have non mechanized units in cover.

I am modifying my list in order to be more effective.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, yet another list deduction, thanks for catchin those point errors guys, may have seen them eventually but better for me to know now...

HQ:
Shas’el, twin missile, plasma rifle, HW MT, HW DC, x2 SD 123pts

Elites:
Plasma Bodygaurd: Team leader, twin missile, plasma, Bonding knife, HW MT, HW DC, x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui, plasma, missile, multi tracker pts 232
(joined to HQ)

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui with twin missile, flame 181 pts

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x2 shas’ui with twin missile, flame 181 pts

Troops:
X6 fire warriors, rifles 60 pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

X12 Kroot 84 pts (infiltrate for PF fish)

X12 Kroot, x 6 kroot hounds 120pts

Fast:
Pathfinders x6, shas’ui, bonding knife 87pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

Heavy:
HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 170 pts

HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 170 pts

Broadsides x2, ASS, team leader, HW DC, x2 shield drones 195 pts

Total:1843 pts

7 points to spare...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or this, to spread wounds around:

HQ:
Shas’el, twin missile, plasma rifle, HW MT, HW DC, x2 SD 123pts

Elites:
Plasma Bodygaurd: Team leader, twin missile, plasma, Bonding knife, HW MT, HW DC, x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui, plasma, missile, multi tracker, x1 shas’ui twin missile, plasma pts 233
(joined to HQ)

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, flame, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, target lock
182 pts

Deathrain unit 2: Team leader, twin missile, flame, bonding knife, HW DC x2 shield drones, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, flame, x1 shas’ui with twin missile, target lock
182 pts

Troops:
X6 fire warriors, rifles 60 pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

X12 Kroot 84 pts (infiltrate for PF fish)

X11 Kroot, x 6 kroot hounds 113pts

Fast:
Pathfinders x7, shas’ui, bonding knife 99pts
-warfish, SMS, multi tracker, disruption pod, targeting array 120pts

Heavy:
HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 170 pts

HH, Burst cannons, Railgun, Disruption pod, Multi tracker, target lock 170 pts

Broadsides x2, ASS, team leader, HW DC, x2 shield drones, 195 pts

Total:1851 pts

Maybe its just me but I can't get Kroot to work in 5th edition. Every time they go for the assualt they get wiped out with there leadership 8 and they just don't do enough wounds to win. With that said I would switch out the Kroot and one unit of Crisis suits to add in 2 full units of FW with Smart Fishes (with SMS, Dis Pod)

On the broadsides you are going to want to add a bonding knife. That way at the end when you are down to one broadside you will still have the regroup ability. Also throw a HWTL on the team lead. This will allow your Railheads to throw down pie plates most of the time unless you are facing a tank horde.

I agree that cover is predominant and is one reason I love taking the AFP. Still small squads of Kroot I just do not find effective in a fish. I would take a squad of 20 Kroot and 6 Hounds. You could always join a commander to them if they fall back and take a regroup test. Add another squad of 6 firewarriors then to take the other devilfish from the pathfinders.

I'll have to try the tactic you gave. It sounds feasible if played right especially in a table quarters game.

grankobot wrote:What's with the missile pod/flamer fetish? Everybody in your area plays orks?

While awaiting your reasoning, I suggest making room for target locks on the hammerheads so that when they move 6" they can pop a vehicle and still spit at some infantry. I prefer the burst cannons (10 points cheaper for 2 extra shots? I'm down with that) but I can see why you might prefer the SMS on terrain clogged boards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you're also missing something in the points cost of your battlesuit teams. By my count it should be something like this:

Base cost - XX
Twin missiles - XX
Flamer - XX

x3 = 141

Team leader - XX
Bonding Knife - XX
Drones - XX

= 181

or am I miscounting something myself?

You can't post specific price costs in the forum, if its information that isn't known WITHOUT the Codex then it should not be posted, you can put costs of units with all its addons, as in the total cost, but not the individual cost. You need to revise your post since this is in violation of the forum rules. Not trying to be rude or mean, just don't want you getting in trouble.

Fexor wrote:

grankobot wrote:What's with the missile pod/flamer fetish? Everybody in your area plays orks?

While awaiting your reasoning, I suggest making room for target locks on the hammerheads so that when they move 6" they can pop a vehicle and still spit at some infantry. I prefer the burst cannons (10 points cheaper for 2 extra shots? I'm down with that) but I can see why you might prefer the SMS on terrain clogged boards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think you're also missing something in the points cost of your battlesuit teams. By my count it should be something like this:

Base cost - XX
Twin missiles - XX
Flamer - XX

x3 = 141

Team leader - XX
Bonding Knife - XX
Drones - XX

= 181

or am I miscounting something myself?

You can't post specific price costs in the forum, if its information that isn't known WITHOUT the Codex then it should not be posted, you can put costs of units with all its addons, as in the total cost, but not the individual cost. You need to revise your post since this is in violation of the forum rules. Not trying to be rude or mean, just don't want you getting in trouble.

Not trying to justify my actions if I'm in the wrong, but - wut?

I don't see in the forum rules where it says this. Is this a legal issue related to all GW discussion - you can't publicize exact point costs?

Fexor wrote:You can't post specific price costs in the forum,

You cant and he didnt. He's not saying targetting array = 11pts , simply the total cost per suit.

This is fine. Its no more illegal than posting the point costs for the entire squad. Its just that if you post the point cost of individual bits of wargear, you could basically draw up all the information from a codex thus preventing you from buying one. This GW may not want but its somthing Grankobot is not guilty off.

@ OP: The positional relay tactic should be used with twin-linked flamers (for sheer silly infantry kill when 3 suits get re-roll to wound templates) and fusion guns (which can be double markered up to BS5 there-by not needing to be twin-linked much). As these suits wont be on the table for as long as ground-bound suits, the inclusion of shield drones is a bit overkill & over-pricing for the suits.

Death rains is much much better for ground-based suits, as they dont need to worry about range. Firestorm (tl-flamer & fusion) suits are the way to go with the positional relay and pathfinderFish combo. PRPFF The positional relay dude should be a deathrain & you could drop the second commander in favour of a deathrain bodyguard squad.

You need MOAR troops are this points level.

The broadsides could happily do with a third member (at expensive of those shield drones)

Razerous, did you look at the updated list or the original? I got rid of the pos relay shas'el, didnt fit with my play style.

For PosRelay Tactics you need to know how to play your army very well and use units for the exact purpose you want to for. Twinlinked fusion and twinlinked flamers do work very well. To pull off landing exactly where you want to requires you to have a pathfinder devilfish as a just in case otherwise you have the chance of scattering out of range or losing your squad entirely.

gameandwatch wrote:Razerous, did you look at the updated list or the original? I got rid of the pos relay shas'el, didnt fit with my play style.

Update the original or you'll get crap response/feedback. Myself being a prime example