Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since everyone has had plenty of time with the new (can you still call it that?) SM Codex, I'm very curious to know how much success you folks have had with it?
I can certainly see it's benefits - flanking in and taking an objective right from under an opponent's nose sounds wonderful - but in reality how does a Landspeeder and 5 isolated scouts tend to perform? Have you found them able to make a difference, or does the small squad size mean that they tend to be swatted aside when they come in?

I'm assuming everyone uses them in reserve with a flanking move - does anyone do anything differently with them?

Honestly its not very good, its av 10 open topped and the only way you can really make sure it maybe does something is by outflanking it.

If I had to use one, heres how I would use it.

Id take 5 scouts with melta bombs and a combi melta on the sgt in a storm with a multi melta in a list with vulkin and outflank it.

So when you outflank you get a tl multi melta shot, a tl melta gun shot and if you really need to pop a tank you can use the scout sgts melta bombs.

Now there's a good chance you could lose this unit next turn but if you get lucky you could technically kill an entire russ squad which would be a pretty good trade IMO

I think the value from the storm comes the disruptive effect it can have on the enemy. If you roll first turn and have the potential for a 20" assault move with a multimelta shot and a melta gun shot, it makes the enemy alter his deployment. Don't forget the ability to make a Scout move to increase the range to potentially 44". Even if you deploy off table, the thought of a load of melta weapons popping up behind his lines will usually cause a headache or two. I don't rely on them to kill anything, but they can have a good payoff---especially if your opponent ignores them.

I think it is more effective than people realize. A friend of mine who plays marines was explaining how he uses his. He does not outflank if he gets first turn. He puts 5 Scouts with a melta bomb or a power fist in the Storm. You move flat out before the game starts during the "scout" movement. Now you have to stay 18" away, fine. Turn 1 move storm forward 12" disembark scouts and assault enemy vehicle that has not moved yet. The scouts with either the fist or the melta bombs can now auto hit the vehicle and go right tho the pen. table. The storm can use its multi melta (if you get it) to pop yet another vehicle. Thats 160 points for storm w/ multi melta, 5 scouts with power fist that can cause some serious damage to a couple enemy vehicles. The storm can also move flat out against Icons and cause some disruption if need be, but I think it is a nice early game disruptor, especially against an army likle guard where you can knock out a couple vehicles and draw some fire on your "throw away" units while your other units move into position. Just a little trick I learned but I dont play marines so take it for what its worth.

Tha Landspeeder Storm is really amazing when carrying a unit of Scouts with a powerfist and maybe melta bombs. If you go first you can scout move and then first turn assault a vehicle that has not moved in rear armor which very maybe a nasty vehicle like a Battle Wagon, Leman Russ that costs many points more then the scouts. The speeder itself also gets a multmelta shot abeit bs3. Even if you do not get fist turn you can outflank with the speeder and move 12, take a shot with the multimelta, have the scouts get out 2 and move 6 to assault a vehicle or fire on and assault a backfield unit like a combat squad with a las cannon or missle or broadsites.

Somnicide has been really pushing the value of his storms with a crimson fist list.

I think you are missing the real magic of it first off. The reserve outflank is actually the consolation prize if you fail to get first turn. With first turn, and a correctly built alpha strike list. You'll have first turn charges on all sorts of units.

So, he plays with pedro, a few drop pods, and some combination of autocannon/lascannon sponson predators and 4xmissile devs.

If he gets first turn, this is how his combo works. Everyhting in the list is designed to go to work right on first turn, with a minimum of drop pods in reserve. he usually uses empty dev squad drop pods to force as many full drop pods onto the table.

Pedro and some sternguard land right near where the storms are going to debark, putting the scouts into pedro's +1 attack bubble. All of his long range shooting is designed to crack transports, and they do their best to open as many as can. If all goes well, there will be at least a couple of transports open. The scouts in storms will charge the contents of one, and the sternguard will hose down the other unit that falls out of the transport. Obviously, the sterns have combi-meltas in case it doesn't go to plan, and to hunt down DANGER units like banewolves and land raider redeemers. the scouts now have 4 attacks each on the charge, including the power fist. they beat 10 man tac squads.

Usually, he runs one 'clean up' hitter type unit as well, like a 5 man thunderhammer unit that'll DS in off a locator beacon and mop up.

It is quite effective, if he gets first turn. But as with all alpha strike lists, including vendetta demo vet spam, if he doesn't get first turn, it goes from scary to a little underwhelming.

It is certainly the best way i can think of offhand to use land speeder storms.

That is when you put stuff into reserve....

I have never used one... but if that 5 man scout unit wins combat the negative mod to ld on top of winning the combat could be very nasty!

I think the biggest problem with the Storm is that with Scouts getting the Nerf bat, the unit is absolutely bursting with ifs, whens, and potentials. Unfortunatly, it just doesn't have enough Will Probably of anything to get the job done.

In the best of circumstances, this could be an awesome little unit, and cheap, too. But it can also fail miserably even when you have all the advantages.

I really think they should have allowed these to be taken in squadrons of at least 2, though. It would have made more sense, so at least you could transport a whole 10 man scout unit without using up 2 FA slots.

@Shep: Am I missing something, or is Somnicide's alpha strike army easily countered by my just leaving everything in reserve if I get second turn?

I mean, I can see the whole thing about dropping the empty dev pods in turn one if that happens so the sternguard can come in later, but the storm at least will get lit up by whatever I bring in from reserves in my turn two and there's a chance the remaining pods will trickle in and allow me to outrange the stranded vets.

So even if you get turn one, the alpha strike list seems underwhelming to me.

I've had some good success in my Vulkan lead Salamanders lists with a storm with a multi melta along with 5 scouts & a combi melta. If I get first turn I zone it forward with the scout move, then first turn I move to within 12" of whatever I want the multi melta to hit while having the scouts & a combi melta/Melta bombs shoot & charge something else.

BS 3 gets a bit better with rerolls.

Flavius Infernus wrote:@Shep: Am I missing something, or is Somnicide's alpha strike army easily countered by my just leaving everything in reserve if I get second turn?

I mean, I can see the whole thing about dropping the empty dev pods in turn one if that happens so the sternguard can come in later, but the storm at least will get lit up by whatever I bring in from reserves in my turn two and there's a chance the remaining pods will trickle in and allow me to outrange the stranded vets.

So even if you get turn one, the alpha strike list seems underwhelming to me.

Yeah, one way to lessen the blow if you go second is to hold for reserves.

If you do that, his deployment also changes. All of the long range shooting remains on table (this is key) and he drop pod assaults two empty drop pods on objectives. The storms are obviously in reserve and outflanking.

Now you play the reserves game. Any well built alpha strike list will win the reserves game, because while you don't have ANY stuff on table, and you get some percentage to come in each turn, the alpha strike player has deployed ALL of his 48" range weaponry in his backfield. His turn 2 reserves do have to come in first, but they are supported by a lot more firepower than if they had come in by themselves, which is what about half of your army is going to do on turn 2.

Holding for reserve is the right way to play versus an alpha strike army, but it doesn't 'hard-counter' it.

I think peoples first builds whenever they do alpha strike are always loaded up on drop pods with meltaguns, or demo vets with meltaguns in vendettas, and they don't take any on-table heavy weapons. You can never amass enough anti-tank to beat a mech army that way, and if your opponent starts in reserve, then you are playing on an even playing field, and with all other armies having more resilience, this breaks the back of most alpha strikers.

Once my group started incorporating long range anti-transport into all of their alpha strike lists, then two things happened. First, it became WAY easier to both pop a transport (from range usually) and then hurt the contents of the transport with heavy flamers/dragonfire rounds/bolters/demo charges. Alpha strike lists that land and kill four 50 point transports and then say "go" get tabled. Second, the "i'll just hold my army in reserve" counter lost its power. You roll 50% of your army on the table, with diminished firepower, and instead of being able to come on in a place that is too far from the enemy drop podders/demo vets, you walk right into lascannons/autocannons/missile launchers. Your mobility still gets popped, and the alpha elements can still catch you and outshoot you.

You have no control over which units you get with the reserves rolls, so there is every likelihood that the units you didn't want show up, and the ones you really needed stay back. Whereas alpha strikers have their heavy support online, and don't really have a special need for any one particular reserve unit to arrive.

Is it the way I'd play space marines if i wanted to win? Nope. But as the thread was about how best to use storms, i thought I'd offer this up. Storms aren't really all that competitive, but this is by far their best trick. I've been on the receiving end of this army with a tourney tuned list. It is legit. It will table you if you just try and take the alpha strike (it tabled my best IG list), and I didn't really do all that well with my IG coming in from reserve against it either.

Oh yeah, forgot about the outflanking for the storm. But if Somnicide rolls first turn, doesn't he either have to (1) deploy the land speeder or (2) declare that it's outflanking from reserve *before* he finds out whether the opponent is keeping everything in reserve?

Thanks, Shep. This turned into a way interesting discussion about alpha strikes. Especially after seeing the list that won 'ard Boyz.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Oh yeah, forgot about the outflanking for the storm. But if Somnicide rolls first turn, doesn't he either have to (1) deploy the land speeder or (2) declare that it's outflanking from reserve *before* he finds out whether the opponent is keeping everything in reserve?

woops, yeah you are right there.. you'll either have to draw out the opponents intentions with conversation, or you are going to have to deploy them. With a 24" scout, a 12" move a 2" deploy and a 6" move, you could at least deploy them somewhere nearby LOS blocking terrain, far enough back that reserves rolling on probably can't just easily pop them.

In this case they go from being an offensive weapon to a couple of scoring units that you'll probably protect and be defensive with all game.