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-- Dark Eldar Wych Cult - 1750 Points --

Archite: Punisher and Tormentor Helm - Combat Drugs and Shadowfield
Animus Vitae and Trophy Rack - Archangel of Pain and Plasma Grenades
172 - HQ Selection

note: Archite attaches to Wych unit below...

Succubus ( agoniser and pistol - trophy rack ) Wyches ( 2x blaster ) Wyches ( 6x ccw and pistol )
all with wych weapons plus grenades: plasma and haywire
Raider ( dark lance and horrorfex )
265 - Troop Selection

Succubus ( agoniser and pistol - trophy rack ) Wyches ( 2x blaster ) Wyches ( 7x ccw and pistol )
all with wych weapons plus grenades: plasma and haywire
Raider ( dark lance and horrorfex )
283 - Troop Selection

Succubus ( agoniser and pistol - trophy rack ) Wyches ( 2x blaster ) Wyches ( 7x ccw and pistol )
all with wych weapons plus grenades: plasma and haywire
Raider ( dark lance and horrorfex )
283 - Troop Selection

Ravager ( 3x disintegrator )
Ravager ( 3x disintegrator )
Ravager ( 3x disintegrator )
360 - Heavy Selections

Reaver Succubus ( punisher - tormentor helm and trophy rack ) Reaver ( 2x splinter rifle ) Reaver ( 2x blaster )
Reaver Succubus ( punisher - tormentor helm and trophy rack ) Reaver ( 2x splinter rifle ) Reaver ( 2x blaster )
382 - Fast Attack Selections

In fact, its a Wych Cult.
I think you have too less Raiders.
The enemy will target your Wych Raiders and then the army is screwed.
The Wych units are really expensive. I'd drop the grenades altogether.
The Archite is also rather expensive. I'd give her agonizer, splinter pistol, shadow field, drugs, and plasma grenades.
Reavers are questionable as they are rather expensive for what they can achieve.
I'd add 2 or 3 Sniper squads (10 Warriors with 2 dark lances) in order to silence big enemy guns.

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, its a Wych Cult.
I think you have too less Raiders.
The enemy will target your Wych Raiders and then the army is screwed.
The Wych units are really expensive. I'd drop the grenades altogether.
The Archite is also rather expensive. I'd give her agonizer, splinter pistol, shadow field, drugs, and plasma grenades.
Reavers are questionable as they are rather expensive for what they can achieve.
I'd add 2 or 3 Sniper squads (10 Warriors with 2 dark lances) in order to silence big enemy guns.

"...In fact, its a Wych Cult..." I didn't understand that comment exactly... I already stated it was a Wych Cult.
"...I think you have too less Raiders..." So, add more at the expense of what ?
"...The Wych units are really expensive..." Costly perhaps, but great at multi-tasking.
"...The Archite is also rather expensive..." Takes down MEQs easier than the Agoniser 4+ option
"...Reavers are questionable..." I find more CD options adds more flexibility to the army - plus they're close to MEQ status.
"...I'd add 2 or 3 Sniper squads..." 200 or 300 points huh ? And what would you remove from the list for that ?.. plus more Raiders ?

With the suggestions you have given - aiming at the "more raiders" and "sniper squads" - could you please post a suggested list in its entirety ?

for a competetive list i would advise against a wych cult.
without the "close combat hopping" like it was possible in 4th ed wyches just end up standing in the open in your enemies turn, which results in certain death.
furthermore they are too expensive to sit on and secure an objective.
being this expensive, even meq armies might have more troops then you do which is the worst that can happen to your wych cult.
because:
if you can not get in cc with most of your enemies troops they will blast away all your card board tanks in no time leaving you wyches unprotected.
walkers will kill you aswell, one of them can bind your units for long enough to buy some time (again) for your enemies troops to blast away your tanks.
even with haywire grenades your chances to kill them fast are pretty low.

btw, reaver dont do gak, and are too expensive, especially when you need the point to bump up your troops choices.
furthermore you dont wanna be putting horrorfexes on your raider with only that little long range anti tank fire, you'll be needing all the dark lances you got there.

if you still wanna go with wych cult i would advise the following:

HQ

archite
-punisher
-combat drugs
-shadow field
-tormentor helm
-animus vitae
-plasma grenades
=162

ELITE

raider Squad #1
-5 warriors
-1x dark lance
-raider
-nightshield
=120

raider Squad #2
-5 warriors
-1x dark lance
-raider
-nightshield
=120

raider Squad #3
-5 warriors
-1x dark lance
-raider
-nightshield
=120

TROOPS

wych squad #1
-8 wyches
-wych weapons
-plasma grenades
-2x blaster
-succubus upgrade
-agoniser
-raider
=205

wych squad #2
-8 wyches
-wych weapons
-plasma grenades
-2x blaster
-succubus upgrade
-agoniser
-raider
=205

wych squad #3
-8 wyches
-wych weapons
-plasma grenades
-2x blaster
-succubus upgrade
-agoniser
-raider
=205

wych squad #4
-7 wyches
-wych weapons
-plasma grenades
-2x blaster
-succubus upgrade
-agoniser
-raider
=191

HEAVY

ravager #1
-3x disintegrator
-shadow field
=140

ravager #2
-3x disintegrator
-shadow field
=140

ravager #3
-3x disintegrator
-shadow field
=140

===> 1748 points

the dark eldar take a lot of skill to be a competetive army, but handled the right way the reward is great, below is an example how i would use the army i've posted.
the plan with this army would be as follows:

- try to go second
- keep your whole army in reserve
==> this will waste 2 rounds of your enemies shooting

- when your reserves come in in second round go for one side of the table only with everything you got
- keep your raiders and ravagers close to the table edge and on one side only (left or right), like this most of the enemy troops will be out of range, wasting another round of shooting, keeping your tanks alive.
- raiders move up to 12" ravagers up to 6" (like this they can fire all 3 dissis at max output),
- it is important to get a good shooting position for your raiders. if possible you dont want to move them after they got on the board, like that they will be able to fire 2 lance shoots each turn (one from passagers)
- priorities are walkers and long range anti tank
- asuming your enemy has moved forward a bit your wyches should be able to get into cc now (12" raider movement, deploy 2" out of vehicle, up to 6" sprint, up to 12" charge - min range 21", max range 32"

it is very important to hit hard on the turn of your arrival, always pick the weaker enemy flank and deploy as far away from the other flank as possible.
still i would very much advise against the wych cult, your troops choices are simply too fragile and too expensive.
if you go for a normal cabal the plan pretty much stays the same, archite changes to archon(still riding with any of the wyches), drop one/two squads of wyches pick 1/2 more raider squads and pimp the remaining wych squads.
i run such a list and it works pretty well for me.

You're trying a competitive wych cult army in 5th? The best piece of advice I can give as a Dark Eldar general is summed up in one word.

Don't.

Ketara wrote:You're trying a competitive wych cult army in 5th? The best piece of advice I can give as a Dark Eldar general is summed up in one word.

Don't.

Ketara is right, Wych Armies suck terribad in 5th.

The best list for DE (now I'm not saying this because I run it) is Raider Spam.

You want 5+ Raiders and 2+ Ravagers with Disintegrators.

DE are one of the strongest armies if built correctly with fool proof tactics.

DE are one of the hardest armies to use however and it will take a ton of practice to work it all out.

radiohazard, Ketara, and sieek do sum up some fairly meaningful concerns about using a Wyche Cult for competitive play (I also like sieek's build, if I built Wyches I'd probably try something rather close to that build). Playing Wyches will probably be fun (and full of awesome Dark Elf boobage) but probably fraught with disappointment and a fair slew of losses. Caveat Emptor.

The biggest weaknesses I see in your current planned build are as follows;

Why the trophy rack in a Wyche squad you plan to join with an Archite? Why not a retinue to prevent individual targeting? I'm going to presume the Archite is separating from the Wyche unit after leaving the Raider - but I would caution that a lone troop hunter can be a little risky in 5th simply because the new consolidation rules mean you'll pretty much always be fighting the entire squad.

I think it's a poor plan at 1750 to only give yourself 3 troop options, especially troops as fragile as Wyches. 66% of the games you'll play will involve objectives - unless your plan is to contest and win via KPs, in which case fielding 12 KPs seems a risky plan. I will say I like the Horrorfexes on the Raiders, since they'll be zipping in close to drop your Wyches the advantage of potentially pinning an enemy unit for a round can be decisive. I often run Horrorfexes on my Wyche boats and rarely regret the point expenditure.

You're poorly built up to deal with armor. You only have 3 Dark Lances in the army, and 10 blasters to help support them. Six of those blasters are on Wyches which should probably be concentrating on elite combat units rather then trying to pop tanks. I'd advise turning a Ravager over to a 3 Lancer, but you desperately need those dissies to deal with horde armies, for which you otherwise have a dearth of tools to deal with.

And then there's the RJBs. Don't get me wrong, I love RJBs almost as much as Wyche squads. But you seem obligated to have them serve as your anti-tank units, but at the same time are dropping about 70 points on a single wound succubus in each squad, which. That's 140 points for those two succubi! That's enough to keep 2 tank hunting RJB squads and add in a raider Squad or practically another squad of Wyches with a Raider. For two models. (also, just on a personal note, I find Trophy Racks of questionable value in RJB squads since usually anything that targets them seems to obliterate them outright - your experiences may differ).

Some of my thoughts,
Thor.

With the suggestions you have given - aiming at the "more raiders" and "sniper squads" - could you please post a suggested list in its entirety ?

You have to squeeze in more units into the army.
I'd go for 3 to 4 Wych units, Warp Beast packs, 3 minimum Raider squads or Warrior squads, and 3 Ravagers led by an Archite.

toxic_wisdom wrote:
With the suggestions you have given - aiming at the "more raiders" and "sniper squads" - could you please post a suggested list in its entirety ?

This is what I'm running in 1500 points. I've managed to borrow the army off a friend to give the list it's first outing tonight - I'll post a BATREP if I get back early enough.

HQ

Archon = 142
Punisher, Tormentor Helm, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, Plasma Grenades, Hell Mask.

Elites

7 Wyches including Succubus = 129
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters, Agoniser.
Raider = 55

7 Wyches including Succubus = 129
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters, Agoniser.
Raider = 55

Troops

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 105
2 Splinter Cannons, 1 Blaster.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 105
2 Splinter Cannons, 1 Blaster.

5 Man Raider Squad = 50
Dark Lance.
Raider = 55

10 Man Warrior Squad = 105
2 Splinter Cannons, 1 Blaster.

Heavy Support

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

Ravager = 120
3 Disintegrators.

1500 Points.

For the additional 250 points I'd add the following:

7 Wyches including Succubus = 129
Wych Weapons, 2 Blasters, Agoniser.
Raider = 55

For the remaining 66 points I leave to you, but I would personally chuck in an Haemonculus.

For the remaining 66 points I leave to you, but I would personally chuck in an Haemonculus.

I'd include a Warp Beast pack.

wuestenfux wrote:

For the remaining 66 points I leave to you, but I would personally chuck in an Haemonculus.

I'd include a Warp Beast pack.

Nope,you'd be better off buying a Dracon with Agoniser to support the second wych squad.

Also quick tip,never pimp out your wych squads or your going to be out numberd Toxic_Wisdoms list is a pefect example of that,i'd only buy your Wychs wych weapons Succabus with Agoniser and your set to go!

Good call on the Dracon Farmer.

radiohazard wrote:Good call on the Dracon Farmer.

It's not a bad call - but I'd get a Drachite, as that way he can benefit from Wych Weapons and the 4+ invulnerable save in close combat. Sixty-six points on the nose once you also add a splinter pistol. In both cases though you probably want to find a way to free up enough points to equip a CDD to them, otherwise they're sort of just a glorified Succubus.

I don't really think that Warp Beasts are a good idea for a Wych Cult. They're fragile, highly vulnerable to shooting and leadership checks, and are an extra killpoint. If you have the points for multiple Beast Packs then you most assuredly have the points for something that can be more effective for the army.

So I'm guessing in the last ten games that I played with the list - having won 9 and lost 1 - those victories all came from going against opponents that sucked ?

toxic_wisdom wrote:So I'm guessing in the last ten games that I played with the list - having won 9 and lost 1 - those victories all came from going against opponents that sucked ?

Congratulations.
How about sharing your experiences gained with the army in these battles?

Will copy-n-paste battle reports later today after work.

toxic_wisdom wrote:So I'm guessing in the last ten games that I played with the list - having won 9 and lost 1 - those victories all came from going against opponents that sucked ?

I apologize - I thought you were looking for advice on where to potentially improve your army.

Thor665 wrote:"...I apologize - I thought you were looking for advice on where to potentially improve your army..."

Always looking at suggestions, but kinda surprised at some of the negativity... not sure where this whole idea of Wych Cults suck in 5th Ed and/or Tournaments.

for the reason posted above (again and again) other army builds are just way more effective,
so in comparison to those, wych cult does suck, we never said you can not win with it, its just less likely that you will, against a skilled oponent with a cheesy made-to-win list.

-- Here's a quick rundown of the last twelve games played with this styled list --

1500 vs Chaos Space Marines - Capture and Control ( Dawn of War ) - victory via Wipeout
1750 vs Chaos Space Marines - Seize Ground ( Spearhead ) - defeat via Objective
2000 vs Dark Angels - Annihilation ( Pitched Battle ) - victory via Wipeout
2500 vs Inquisition - Capture and Control ( Dawn of War ) - victory via Wipeout
1750 vs Orks - Seize Ground ( Pitched Battle ) - victory via Objective
1750 vs Witch Hunters - Capture and Control ( Pitched Battle ) - victory via Wipeout
1500 vs Tau Empire - Capture and Control ( Dawn of War ) - victory via Wipeout
1750 vs Blood Angels - Annihilation ( Spearhead ) - victory via Objective
1500 vs Necrons - Seize Ground ( Dawn of War ) - victory via Phase Out
0750 vs Space Marines - Annihilation ( Spearhead ) - victory via Wipeout
1000 vs Space Wolves - Seize Ground ( Pitched Battle ) - victory via Wipeout
2000 vs White Scars - Capture and Control ( Dawn of War ) - victory via Objective

During 4th Edition I ran a slightly different list at 1750 = three WWPs were included for roughly the same point cost as all of the Haywire Grenades... An Archite ( agoniser - cd and shadows ) on foot carried one of the WWPs. The other two were carried by Sybarites with Raider Squads ( the Reaver Jetbike units have since replaced the two Raider units ).

Tactics then were pretty simple - protect the Archite ( IC Status ) as a failsafe to open her WWP... Two Raider Squads advance for better real eastate to have the Sybarites open their WWPs... Reserve units arrive and wreak havoc.

When 5th Ed was released there was a turn around in the lists efficiency... aaack - the Wych Cult sucks now ! As noted above for some obvious reasons ( ie no consolidating into another unit after close combat ). I packed up the army for quite a while, more so I put the entire game on pause - turning towards Privateer Press for tabletop gaming. After several months however I began playing40K again - 2009 New Year and New Start... Wasn't interested in my Dark Eldar though, rather spent more time with my Eldar and Chaos Space Marines.

It was during a recent string of events that I was running at a local gaming store that made me want to try Dark Eldar again. As the event organiser I removed myself from prize support, but did play games during the events. I was more interested in having fun and at the same time try to relearn the DE Curve by 5th Edition standards. I started with the basics all over again: footslogging Warriors... Raider Rush... and then on to my fave = Wych Cult.

During the events I had the opportunity to look at what the strengths and weaknesses were for Dark Eldar, and towards the end for the Wych Cult in particular. I've made a few adjustments and have since had positive results. Notably = Haywire Grenades across the board... Trophy Racks on Characters... The Archite switched from the Agoniser to the Punisher...

In the recent battles above you'll note that the vast majority of Wins came as a result of completely eliminating the opposition. As its been pointed out in earlier posts, Wyches aren't exactly the most resilient unit to hold on to objectives... so I don't even bother trying to. Instead I play the army almost from a fluff standpoint = fast and dangerous. The difference we have here is that of the two types of Objective Missions my intentions from the start is not to win by objective, the same however cannot usually be said about the opposition - simply put on a tactic level, my Wych Cult behaves as a Trapdoor Spider leading the prey inwards. For the third type of Mission ( utter destruction ) the playing field balances out a bit more rival players. However, I still believe that Dark Eldar are one of the best "all-comers" armies in the system so these types of battles almost grant an easy victory.

Standard tactics per unit include the following:

Archite - hitch a ride with the 9 Wych unit and then separate herself from the group. Weaker squads that will allow her the chance to gain the benefit of the Animus Vitae will be engaged first. Otherwise she commits herself to tougher opponents ( for example - Plague Marines ). If left unchecked, this model can really put a dent into the opposition's game plan. In the Blood Angels game above for example, victory was determined by a score of 9 Kill Points to 6 Kill Points... six of those nine kill points were scored by the Archite.

Ravagers - eliminate opposing Troop units as the primary, keep light vehicles in check as the secondary. The Ravager has become slightly more vulnerable to damage with the release of 5th Edition, but the new Blast rules I believe makes up for it... Essentially nine mobile Plasma Cannons ( or 27 Doombolts ) is typically enough to keep the opposition buried in cover, or make undesired decisions ( target the Ravagers and Wyches are left unchecked - target the Wyches and Ravagers are left unchecked ).

Wyches - obvious... engage the enemy in close combat is their primary role. And yes, they are a bit on the costly side but they can multitask when needed ( anti tank... walkers... etc ).

Reaver Jetbikes - Anti Tank support first, engaging smaller and weaker units second, providing cover saves to disengaged Wyches when possible, and lastly turbo contention if needed. I also like the option for rolling two more times on the CD chart ( as opposed to no Combat Drugs for the 4th Ed Raider Units list ). With 5 Combat Drug options - 3 for Wyches and 2 for Reavers - it adds more flexibility to the list overall... except for the silly "assault first" option.

Versus: Space Marine Bike army with GK Support
Points: 1750
Mission and Deployment: Capture and Control ... Dawn of War
Open: Dark Eldar strike first
Result: Draw - DE Victory via Victory Points

DE Method of Madness: Three Ravagers use range and position to advance along the right edge of table and inwards. Two Raider squads ( including Archite ) and both Reaver units advance up the left edge and inwards. Third Raider squad holds ground for protection and objective.

CD Wych Unit 01 Result: +1 Attack
CD Wych Unit 02 Result: Reroll Misses in CC
CD Wych Unit 03 Result: +1 Weapon Skill
CD Reaver Unit 01: Strike First
CD Reaver Unit 02: +1 Strength

Dark Eldar Setup:
-- Deployed - Archite and two Wych Raider units.
-- First turn arrival - two Reaver squads, Wych Raider unit, and three Ravagers.

SM & GK Setup:
-- Deployed - Bike Commander and two Bike Units
-- First Turn Arrival - two Bike units with two Assault Bikes units, and Land Raider with GK Terminators
-- Reserved: one unit of Grey Knights

Turn 01:

First Raider with Wyches and Archite advances. Archite detaches and engages one bike unit. Second Raider Wych unit relocates for obstructed protection. Two Reaver units and third Raider Wych unit take position ( turbo and flatout ). Three Ravagers hold the back line and eliminate the other Bike Unit via mass Max Dissies ( Commander on Bike survives but wounded ).

First set of Assault Bikes wreck a Raider ( five Wyches survive and get assaulted by the Assault Bikes - Wyches lose and fall back ). After failing to score a single wound on the Bikes that remained, the Archite gets hit once by PF Sergeant and fails the Shadowfield save ( Uugghh ! ). Second set of Assault Bikes eliminate one Rifle Reaver and one Blaster Reaver ( unit 01 ). Land Raider knocks out the Dark Lance and the Horrorfex on the flatout arriving Raider Wych unit. Third unit of Bikes eliminates one Rifle Reaver ( unit 02 ). Fourth unit of Bikes ( and the Bike Commander separately ) turbo for position and protection.

Turn 02:

Single Ravager eliminates the Bike Commander, and the other two Ravagers combine efforts to eliminate the fourth unit of Bikes. Reaver unit 01 eliminates one Assault Bike unit, and Reaver unit 02 eliminates the other Assault Bike unit. One of the Raider Wych units engages a Bike unit, while the last one positions again to expect arrival of Grey Knights.

One Bike squad stands toe-to-toe with one of the Reaver units. The Terminators manage to multi-assault the other Reaver unit plus the Wych unit engaged with the Bike squad. Land Raider wrecks the Raider that it damaged in the previous turn.

Turn 03:

Turning Point: Dark Eldar gain the upper hand by the end of the third turn, as the opposition has been reduced to almost nothing. Tactical mistake however on my behalf would be costly later - I forgot to move the "capture" unit of Wyches into scoring position.

Turn 04:

Grey Knights arrive on target but at a high cost, as they lose three models via Dangerous Terrain Tests. They manage however to take down the Raider and its "capture" passengers ( out of scoring position ). The only other target remaining on the SM&GK side is the Land Raider that suffers numerous damage effects via Blasters, Glancing Agoniser, and Haywire Grenades.

Turn 05:

Wyches engage and eliminate the Grey Knights - I'm hoping for another turn so that the unit can use its consolidate, then move + fleet to get into scoring position. The now Immobilized LR suffers more damage, but just not enough to become destroyed.

Closing:

Game ends at the end of Turn Five, with the "capture" unit of Wyches out of scoring position, resulting in a Tactical Draw per Objective. Through Victory Points however, the Dark Eldar earn the win: one heavily damaged Land Raider remains for the SM&GKs while the DE have a better portion of its army still intact... Great Game Kevin !!!

I can vouch for Toxic, he knows exactly what he's doing and plays his DE well still into 5th Ed. I think that says a lot since IMO, DE lost a LOT of their punch in 5th.

Still, even though you've played a lot more games than me in 5th (and I mean a gak-ton), I think your list will have problems against Orks or IG, basically stuff that can put a ton of bodies onto the field will give you headaches since the number of dice can overwhelm you (Orks), or there's too much crap on the field and after you assault one thing and kill it, the other stuff will shred you (IG).

Against MEQ's, well it's safe to say you know how to eat them for lunch at this point.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:"...Against MEQ's, well it's safe to say you know how to eat them for lunch at this point..."

Nyomm ! Nyomm ! Nyomm ! ... yummy !

Nom all you want buddy, you should play against my newly upcoming Boyz some time.

To quote DoW2: "Puny Eldar, I've got to kill two of em just to be satisfied!"