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I did not think i would start this part of my project so quickly, but i was thinking and needed input. I need to know if anything out there has a rule similar to this, This is for the lesser daemons of Za'Neb, a Chaos God i have partially developed. never mind the fluff but this is how it works.
The lesser daemon squad can field anywhere from 5-20 and is a troop choice.
They have the vulverable to template special rule (flamers, blasts large and small), however an invulnerable save of 5+, with the mindless special rule.
a profile as follows
WS=4
BS=2
S=1D3 +(1D6 - 4)
T=2
W=1
I= 2D6 - 6 (2-6)
A=1D6-3
Ld=10
The unique part comes in with a rule I have yet to name. I hope these are somewhat easy to kill with a shooty team, especially with a toughness of 2. there attacks are extremely random for fluff reasons (all dice rolls). The balancing option I have in mind is a reproduction rule. If the squad manages to survive an opponents turn, it takes an initiative test at the beginning of the users turn, based on a re-roll of it's initiative. If passed, the remaining squad members split in half and the squad is brought to twice it's current members total, but cannot exceed the original total (ie, a squad of 10 orginally that has 7 survivors cannot repenish up to 14). In scoring, any wounds recovered this way are not scored. I am thinking of giving the greater daemon a skill to allow these troops to always take a leadership test instead. My estimate of these troop value is in the vicinity of 17 points per one. What do you think higher or lower. I already know that they would be horrible at holding objectives. I also need to think of a good long range weapon profile. But I am no hurry with this.
any advice please.

I really like idea of reproducing units, it similar to necrons getting back up, but a lot more funny. I'd take off all of the random stuff though. Makes it confusing. Especially the random strength.

Str - score from -2 to 5
Init - score from -5 to 6 (if you wanted 2-6, use 2 d3)
Attacks - -2 to 3.

I'd just give it a str of 3, init of 3 and d3 attacks. That keeps it simple.

WS of 4 indicates they are close-combat specialists, I don't think this works with the mindless rule, imo.
Do they have a shooting attack? If not, you could get rid of their BS.

I'd allow them to still keep scoring.

17 points each is way too high. They'll die in droves. I'm thinking 6-8 points, assuming no shooting attack.

It looks good. I'd suggest WS 2 or 3 and then a one time roll of ST at 2d3 and Initative at 2d3 before the game starts. You can make the attacks a d3 every assault phase. I would also allow unlimited reproduction regardless of the original squad size since T2 and 5++ will die fast. 10-12 points per model should be good.

I really like idea of reproducing units, it similar to necrons getting back up, but a lot more funny. I'd take off all of the random stuff though. Makes it confusing. Especially the random strength.

Str - score from -2 to 5
Init - score from -5 to 6 (if you wanted 2-6, use 2 d3)
Attacks - -2 to 3.

i knew I saw something fishy with my math. D3's work much better. I know it is confusing, but the fluff almost dictates randomness in all these aspectss

I'd suggest WS 2 or 3 and then a one time roll of ST at 2d3 and Initative at 2d3 before the game starts.

This might work very well, maybe a daemonic gift of having a reroll of all of these once per game.

17 points each is way too high. They'll die in droves. I'm thinking 6-8 points, assuming no shooting attack.

I did say they will have a shooting attack,I just have not thought of a good one for them. They cannot be quite as strong in shooting as pink horrors, but i think i will give them another special rule, Za'Neb's psychosis. They will have the ability to cause another squad within 7" of them to divide in half and one attacks the other. If there is a squad of 10 space marines, and they are within 7" of a squad of these, 5 of them will attack the other other five. The squad must take a leadership check. If past nothing happens, but if failed both a shooting and assalt phase for the affected individuals must take place, but with no retaliatory action by the other squad members. I think this ability with the ability to shoot will probably put them over the 12 point line for sure. Especially considering deepstrike. It may even make them count as an elite choice. I might also make it a short range weapon instead of an ability. I am also thinking of adding 1 wound to the little monsters. I think I might call them gremlins of Za'Neb in homage to my favorite hording monsters. i wanted their weapon skill to be high but their strength random, they will hit someone, but are less likely to actually wound them, think just flailing about rather than really meaning to do damage. these are only changes i can think of for now revised profile
WS=4
BS=2
S=2D3 rolled at the beginning of the assault phase, but only rolled once per combat
T=2
W=2 (Maybe)
I=2D3-1
A=2D3 - 3 (May not be able to attack at all unless on a charge where they merely get the bonus dice)
Ld = 10
Sv = 5+
Chaos Icon option (25pts), Instrument of Chaos option(5pts), The Sprouter ( a special character that allows all Za'neb units to take a leadership test instead of an initiative test to reproduce) option (30pts)
Daemonic gifts:
Fission of Za'Neb: Reproduction rule as already described
I am Za and Neb: Due to the fact that Za'Neb is a dual entity, all of his daemons are as well. This is similar to Tzeentch's We are legion rule. The squad may target two squads at once during the shooting phase. Both must be in range of at least one's weapon, consequently only one might be able to fire in either direction depending on the squad formation.

Weapon profile (just thought of this now) Za'Neb's psychosis: Template range. All units hit under the template (the ballistic skill will detemine if all the units covered by the template are hit, 5 covered 5 rolls to hit) do not get wounded, but instead perform a shooting and assault phase on the other members of their own squad with no retaliation from the other squad members. The effected squad may consolidate after, all effects end with the end of the players turn. All types of units may be effected, this is not a psychic attack, so any boon against psychic attacks are forfeit.

I think this may make them worth some more points

but i think i will give them another special rule, Za'Neb's psychosis. They will have the ability to cause another squad within 7" of them to divide in half and one attacks the other. If there is a squad of 10 space marines, and they are within 7" of a squad of these, 5 of them will attack the other other five. The squad must take a leadership check. If past nothing happens, but if failed both a shooting and assalt phase for the affected individuals must take place, but with no retaliatory action by the other squad members. I think this ability with the ability to shoot will probably put them over the 12 point line for sure. Especially considering deepstrike. It may even make them count as an elite choice. I might also make it a short range weapon instead of an ability. I am also thinking of adding 1 wound to the little monsters. I think I might call them gremlins of Za'Neb in homage to my favorite hording monsters. i wanted their weapon skill to be high but their strength random, they will hit someone, but are less likely to actually wound them, think just flailing about rather than really meaning to do damage. these are only changes i can think of for now revised profile

While I still like the concept, I think you're beginning to fall victim to the uber-unit syndrome and lumping too many cool rules onto one unit instead of creating an army like you started out with. I would remedy this by thinking about how you want the units to function on the battlefield and what slots they need to fill in the army. I would suggest something like this:

Troops: T2, W1, Za'Neb fission, random strength and attacks, no shooting, 7-9 points, big squads

Elites: T3, W2, Za'Neb fission, Za'Neb psychosis, good assault abilities, 15-17 points, small starting squads

Heavy: T2, W1, Za'Neb fission, good shooting attack

Fast: T2, W1, Za'Neb fission, random attacks, cavalry

Apply the K.I.S.S. concept to the units. Opponents will only be frustrated playing against overly complicated units. Keep the special rules simple and easy to understand and play with. The universal fission rule plus the other units abilities will make this army concept challenging to play against.

Ygds wrote:All types of units may be effected, this is not a psychic attack, so any boon against psychic attacks are forfeit.

While I have little room to correct someone, I believe that being daemons (pure psychic constructs) their attack would have either none or diminished effect on units like Pariahs.
And because their nature is completely random, perhaps you could roll dice to determine what troop type a squad goes under during deployment, and take PanzerLeader's advice about their stats from there.

I like the randomness. Keep it.

However, especially for attacks, make it so that you always get at least 1 attack.

I like to Keep things simple. I was not trying to fall into the uber unit syndrome. I think I fell off the deep end a bit on complexity, as I was trying to think of a horde unit for Daemons that had a shooting attack or a Chance of truly assaulting (not a certainty), That is I did not want them to be predictable and so went way overboard with randomization. I was especially wanting to be consistent with the current trend in Daemon rules, The lowest point value of a model is a nurgling base at 13 points. All the other troops are in the vicinity of 14-17 points. elites are 35-40 points. I am trying to be consistent with the number of special rules they all have too when you consider them. Many have 2 special rules inherently. Let me run this past you.

WS=3
BS=0
S=D3
T=1
W=2
A=D3 (rolled for entire squad)
I= 5
Ld= 10
Sv= 5+ invulnerable
Special rules:
Za'Neb fission, Daemon, Mindless (must assault if in range of nearest enemy squad, vulnerable to blasts and templates.
I of C (one model only) = 5 pts
C I (one model only) = 25pts
The Sprouter (one model per army) = Leadership test taken to reproduce instead of initiative (35pts)
Za'Neb psychosis (one model)= 15pts
I have taken away shooting from all in the squad, but allowed one to have the skill of Za'Neb psychosis, if they come close to assault range it will be a way to soften up the charged squad before assault. I gave them two wounds because if they are up against any army with artillery they will dissappear after deep strike without it, no chance to reproduce. I also want to keep with Daemon numbering shemes for squads, though this is a hording troop I wanted them to have a different kind of hording, that is, they are almost all gone one moment and then rebuild the next. I wanted them to assault in groups, that are half gone and then regrow in numbers the next turn, being almost like nurglings in being tar pit units, but have some real umph, that is actually be able to do real damage if they get close. But also vulnerable one combat ends, they are easily baited with expendable units, and therefore their tar pitting abilities may not be put to full use unless the Daemon general using them is good at placement. In any case tell me what you think. i do not want to have 7-9 point units. 12-16 is fine, 16 is prefferable.

i like the Idea for the elites. I am not making a fast attack, as the mindless special rule will make cavalry almost ineffective, however I would like them to be distractive, the kind of units one has to attack carefully, using their propensity to be distracted against them.

The heavy support choice is one I have been considering for a while, It will be over 100 pts for sure and the greater daemon will be just short of 200pts when all is said and done.
I had this idea for a heavy support choice almost as soon as I read the Daemon codex, then I found out it had already been done in concept , the Blood slaughterer in Imperial Armour.
I had the Idea of a sort of Harpoon Beast. A beast that can harpoon tanks and walkers and draw them in it's direction D3 inches each turn per landed harpoon. It could only do so if it had full view of the walker or tank. The harpoons would have a chance to land only if it penetrated it's armour, hence a Pen must be scored, It would only be allowed to harpoon one vehicle at a time and could land up to 3 harpoons, for a maximum of 3D3 inches per turn of movement. No harpooning through difficult and impassible terrain. The Tank or walker may break loose from the harpoons buy moving the tank either away D6=4+ inches or to the sides D6=4+ inches. The beast would have 5 wounds but 2 toughness and WS=5 and Strength=D6 +2 plus fleet. It would not have Za'Neb fission as only one would consist a squad. I think making it larger in number would be imbalancing. I mean them to be tank busters, harpooning tanks and bringing them in range of it's fleet. Still got to do some real work on this though and simplify it. Like I said I am in no rush on this part of my project, these are only ideas and by no means rigid.

For Strength, I'd make it D3+1. You don't want them to be Str 1, then they couldn't even wound Plague Marines.

Nothing in the game has a toughness of 1. You can't be getting insta-killed by lasguns. 2 was good

If they're vulnerable to blasts and templates, shouldn't they have the small target rule? Giving them +1 cover save?

What is I of C, or C I?

Also, give them eternal warrior, can't give them 2 wounds, but leaving them open to insta-death by small arms.

If you want them to be 16 points, you're going to need to beef them up. Maybe 3 wounds, maybe Strength of 4 base instead of D3+1, or even up the initiative so they have a better chance of reproducing.

Chaos Daemons all have the eternal warrior special rule by default. Just as they are Fearless and eneter play by deepstrike.

For Strength, I'd make it D3+1. You don't want them to be Str 1, then they couldn't even wound Plague Marines.

Nothing in the game has a toughness of 1. You can't be getting insta-killed by lasguns. 2 was good

If they're vulnerable to blasts and templates, shouldn't they have the small target rule? Giving them +1 cover save?

What is I of C, or C I?

Also, give them eternal warrior, can't give them 2 wounds, but leaving them open to insta-death by small arms.

If you want them to be 16 points, you're going to need to beef them up. Maybe 3 wounds, maybe Strength of 4 base instead of D3+1, or even up the initiative so they have a better chance of reproducing.

Toughness 2 may work, and as bascilica said they would automatically have the daemon special rule which already gives them eternal warrior and fearless. D3+1 is good however, as it will allow them more effect, however that is not their main purpose, they are supposed to perform a similar function to Nurglings and really just be a tarpit unit, easy to destroy with template weaponry but hard to kill in combat. They will reproduce almost every turn if one fields the sprouter. They serve the purpose of having the numbers needed to let much more competent fighters assault and finish the job (bloodletter, daemonettes, fiends and bloodcrushers). so I will change the profile to have a T=2. But I will not give them the swarms rule as they are not insignificant enought to count, they should not get a cover unless in cover, I think if they did there would be a problem. They are not supposed to last as individuals as long a nurglings do (2-3 turns) as specific models, but should last as a squad throughout a game.
To answer the other question. I of C and C I stand for Icon of Chaos and Chaos Instrument (really should have put instrument of chaos). They are the standard options for troop choices in a Daemons Army, The first allows other squads deepstriking in to deep-strike within 6" a squad that has an Icon without rolling for scatter. The second, allows for any combat that ends in a draw to in fact end with Daemon's winning by 1 wound. An extra wound more plus all this would just be imbalancing. I think anyway, won't know till I field test this idea. That may not happen for some time. They exist not to do direct harm, but only to slow the advance of enemies. So as is they will probably range about 15 points a piece in my estimation. That is good enough for me. But please post any objections, Again in no hurry to field the little devils (heck i don't even know what I will make them look like).