Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One of my common opponents runs a jetbike heavy army with a lot of Farseer/Warlock support. Typically, he fortunes a large Jetike unit and turbo-boosts them right in front of my lines. Between the invunerable saves and Fortune, only 1/9 wounds will cause a casualty. If I divert my firepower elsewhere or don't charge, I open myself up to the charge the following turn.

I'm usually of the opinion that it's better to charge than be charged, but in this case, the units are too well-protected to do enough damage. Apart from running a Redeemer/Librarian with Avenger to ignore the cover saves or trying to just tie the unit down with a dread, I don't have a bunch of ideas.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks dakka. I can post my normal list if that would be helpful.


Disclaimer: I am just back into 40k after a 4-5 year absence and haven't read the most recent Eldar codex, so it's possible that the rules aren't being followed 100% correctly.

I run a libby to deal with lash/seers. They really do help. Hood gives a chance to stop the power, and null zone takes away the reroll from fortune on the invulnerable saves. Won't always work, but at least you are directly opposing the eldar's advantage. The libby is also really helpful against CSM. All in all, the libby has proven to be my favorite HQ after trying a terminator captain and jump pack chaplain.

Fire every thing you have at it ... then sacrifice a tac squad (or equivalent) so you can move away and shoot it some more.

Also a librarian casting null zone helps greatly.

you really have 1 option... hit them in hand to hand with something that ignores armor saves. you can nullify the bonus to the re-rollable invulnerable saves with the librarian, by casting null zone, so he only gets a single save. a single tac squad with a fist could probably handle them. just make sure you get the fist in hand to hand with the farseer... 3 swings on the charge should crush him. They will probably kill ~ 4 marines this round... you just need to kill the seer. with the seer dead, at the end of the next turn any surviving marines can break off with combat tactics. at the start of your turn, open fire on them with any AP1-3 weapons you have, while casting null zone with the librarian. they will all die. Terminators can do this job as well, as can assault squads. basically any squad with a fist. whatever you do though, don't throw in a dreadnought.... the council will eat it fast.

You don't even really have to prep this unit with alot of fire. Jet Bikes still only have one attack in the assault phase, so use a Tac Squad with a powerfist or a small assault squad with a fist to hop in and crunch them. Turbo boosting only provides a 3+ cover save so no help in hand to hand.

Note:
If the farseer joins the locks on jetbikes, and fortunes them, they can't turbo boost.

If they turbo boost then no fortune.
If they fortune, they can only move 12" and then 6" assault move forward.

So that helps when the Eldar player follows the rules.

Secondly: weight of fire will get through re-rollable saves. In addition, don't forget wound allocation if/when it starts to apply.

Else, focus on killing the other scoring elements before they tie you up.

Sanctjud wrote:Note:
If the farseer joins the locks on jetbikes, and fortunes them, they can't turbo boost.

If they turbo boost then no fortune.
If they fortune, they can only move 12" and then 6" assault move forward.

So that helps when the Eldar player follows the rules.

I believe there were two units of jetbikes, one with a warlock and one with a farseer. One of the units was fortuned by the other, then turbo-boosted. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.

That would be a different situation and legal in McNutty's post.
My situation was clearly a farseer in a squad of locks on jetbikes, or even GJB squads.

I don't think the OP was very clear about it though.
He said turbo boosting, and then Inv. saves... did he mean inv saves of just the warlock, or more than one inv saves means a squad of warlocks or a warlock and a farseer.

I think an army list would be more clear.

why can't they fortune then turbo boost?

It depends on the situation.

If the seer has JOINED the squad that will be fortuned, they can't turbo boost.

Turbo boosting can only be done if that is the ONLY thing you VOLUNTARILY do. Fortuning is a voluntary action other than turbo boosting, therefore you are not allowed to turbo boost after fortuning.

___________

Now if the seer was in a different squad, and fortuned another squad of jetbikes, the other squad can turbo boost fine, but the seer still can not.

huh.... I never knew that sanctjud. thanks! this simplifies matters then... if its a squad of locks + farseer, use a librarian + sternguard, and rapid fire ap3 rounds into them... if they didn't fortune and instead turbo boosted, open up with the wounds on a 2+ rounds... both will cause serious damage.

/Thumbs up.

I know cause I use a 10 man council myself.
I generally fortune, move 12+6 assault giving me 18". It's not that bad of a tradeoff.

Generally I treat the council as expendable...which can be very bad for the opponent if they don't like getting tarpitted.

Whats wrong with charging them? Dual 3+ saves?

Theyre WS3, S3, Ld8. Powerfist them and catch them (I4)

Night Lords wrote:Whats wrong with charging them? Dual 3+ saves?

Theyre WS3, S3, Ld8. Powerfist them and catch them (I4)

???? they're WS4 and can be boosted to WS5. All though not a power weapon the witch blade wounds every one on a 2+ (str9 vs vehicles). They have a pistol, so +1a for 2CCWs. 3+/4+ save with a reroll is better then a 2+/3+ save (Terminator with storm shield (6/36)//(12/36) Warlock on a bike with fortune (4/36)//(9/36)). Oh and that I4 can (should) be boosted to I5.

Guys I think we need to make a distinction:

Warlocks on Jetbikes are a unit.

Guardian Jetbikes are another unit.

Warlocks fight combat well, Guardians are no better than wet paper towel in a fight.

The OP was not very clear, and like I said, a army list of some king would be more helpful IMO.

Are we not talking about regular Jetbikes here? This has been a confusing read, haha.

Looks like I am confusing just about everyone. I don't have a copy of his list, but if memory serves, it is a Guardian Jetbike with a warlock or farseer attached.

CC is fine with power weapons. However with Fortune, with my assault marines normal attacks (with Chaplin) don't cut it against re-rolled 3+. Normally, he will use it in combination with Doom from another unit if CC continues as well.

I'll see if I can dig up a list at some point.

Uggh.. for crying out loud. Like I said, the OP was not clear about it.
Everyone is assuming stuff.

McNutty wrote:... Typically, he fortunes a large Jetike unit and turbo-boosts them right in front of my lines. Between the invunerable saves and Fortune, only 1/9 wounds will cause a casualty. ...

That is the quote.

If he means invulnerable saves as in the warlocks' save and more than one of them, then he means the Warlock Unit on jetbikes.

If he is still thinking that turbo boosting is invulnerable saves, then he's in 4th edition and we dont' know which one he is talking about.

/sigh. I suggest waiting til the OP comes back and posts to clear things up.

Bottom line:
Warlock squads good in combat.
Guardian jetbikes bend over and take it in combat.

McNutty wrote:Looks like I am confusing just about everyone. I don't have a copy of his list, but if memory serves, it is a Guardian Jetbike with a warlock or farseer attached.

CC is fine with power weapons. However with Fortune, with my assault marines normal attacks (with Chaplin) don't cut it against re-rolled 3+. Normally, he will use it in combination with Doom from another unit if CC continues as well.

I'll see if I can dig up a list at some point.

Yea, but he'll be doing even less damage back. Your fist with 2 attacks will most likely win combat. He'll then have to continue to fortune a unit that wont win combat just in hopes of keeping them alive.

Hmmm, well what I would do in annihilation is leave a weak unit (like Rangers, scouts, anything that can be easily killed) and leave them isolated from the rest of your forces (not too far I might add, just far enough to get almost all of your shots in). Then, the jetbikes will see a juicy kill point to earn. When the Jetbikes get close, charge them so they won't get away with shooting. After your unit is destroyed, that leaves the Jetbikes in the open, no 3+ cover saves from moving fast, and then shoot them up with all you got. Then, after you are done shooting, assault again! Then if they are STILL alive after that, they are open to another turn of shooting.

It all comes down to what kind of unit the eldar player is boosting out there. From later posts it does seem that the eldar player may not be fielding a bike council .... but its not certain.

If its a regular guardian bike squad then by all means tie them up in cc, they only get one attack each (except for potentially one warlock), have ws3 and str3. Even with rerolled saves they just arent going to do much in cc. Tho they can act as a screen and provide cover saves to most of the rest of the eldar army for one turn's firing.

If its a full fledged council of warlocks led by a farseer then thats an entirely different matter, and much harder to deal with. Shooting it to pieces and sacrificing a small unit or two in cc becomes a much more attractive idea. Force the council to pause a bit, and put as many shots as possible into it. Sooner or later saves will be missed, and a council is a large block of points.


One thing, dont count too much on a librarian and null zone to work well on a council. Any eldar player who runs a jet council will almost undoubtedly be using Runes of warding, which means that the librarian will fail more than half of his psychic tests. Runes require all opponents psychic tests to be taken on 3d6, with any result of 12+ being a perils of the warp. It *might* work, but if you are counting on it too heavily your whole plan can fall apart with one average roll.



Sliggoth