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A list I made this morning that I'll either play for fun or more seriously depending on others opinions. And assuming I was stuck playing this how do you think I should play it? I'm flexible...

Nidzilla Army-1997

HQ-Hive Tyrant-194+156=350
Adrenal Glands(WS) 4
Adrenal Glands(I) 15
Acid Maw 10
Flesh Hooks 4
Toxin Sacs 12
Toxic Miasma 6
Bonesword & Lashwhip 15
Scything Talons 8
Extended Carapace 25
Warp Blast 20

Tyrant Guard 45x3=156
Flesh Hooks 3
Implant Attack 18

HQ-Hive Tyrant-231
Adrenal Glands(WS) 4
Adrenal Glands(I) 15
Acid Maw 10
Enhanced Senses 10
Warp Field 35
Flesh Hooks 4
Toxin Sacs 12
Winged 40
Toxic Miasma 6
Twin Linked Devourer 12
Scything Talons 8

Elites-1x Carnifex-111
Twin linked Deathspitter
Twin Linked Devourer
Flesh Hooks

Elites-2x Carnifex-114x2=228
Barbed Strangler
Scything Talons
Flesh Hooks

Troops-4x16 Gaunts-96x4=384
Fleshborers 2

Heavy Support-3x231 Carnifex
Acid Maw 6
Adrenal glands(I) 6
Adrenal glands(ws) 4
Bonded exoskeleton(+1T) 20
Extended Carapace(+1Sv) 25
Implant Attack(doublewounds) 8
Reinforced Chitin(+1W) 15
SpineBanks(ranged weapon+frag grenades) 5
Toxin Sacs(+1S) 6
Toxic Miasma(-1WS Opponent) 8
Tusked(+2A on charge) 10
Crushing Claws 25
Scything Talons 8

Even if you really like heavily upgraded 'fexes, I think you've gone overboard on the heavy choices. Tusked, toxin sacs, spinebanks, implant attack, and acid maw can all be cut, I would then switch crushing claws for another set of scything talons (expensive and unreliable is a poor combination in my experience). What's that, 52 points saevd per carnifex? And you've still got the important upgrades, improving survivability and to hit chance. Use the 156 points saved to buy a crapload more gaunts!

On the tyrants, I think the guarded tyrant works well with twin devourers. That makes a truly nasty unit. The flying tyrant might benefit from 2 x scything talons. Certainly the options you're using now seem sub-optimal. Bonesword/lashwhip and warp blast are pretty poor IMO. Acid maw and implant attack are wastes of time on tyrant/guard. If you do dedicate the foot tyrant to devourers, then you can strip him of the WS and I upgrades as well as flesh hooks, saving a lot of points.

Are you certain you have enough synapse? remember that carnifexes are fearless, but still affected by the instinctive behaviour rules (although LD 10 does help with this). Because of this, you may want to consider genestealers instead of/in addition to gaunts as troops. Otherwise, you're vulnerable in objective missions, since a good opponent can eventually kill the tyrants and remove your ability to reliably hold ground.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot to say, elite 'fexes look great, although twin devourers (x2) and enhanced senses might be better for the deathspitter/devourer fex.

If you do add more troops by cutting upgrades, 2x32 gaunts is probably better than 4x16 - the units are easier to get in synapse range.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Are you certain you have enough synapse? remember that carnifexes are fearless, but still affected by the instinctive behaviour rules (although LD 10 does help with this).

Please be aware that the errata fixed this awhile ago. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180140_Tyranids_FAQ_2006-08_5th_Edition.pdf

Anyway, as mentioned, cut the excess upgrades off and just throw down more bodies on the field. A unit or two of genestealers would be great to have either as feeder tendril back up (rerolls on fex sounds great to me), or as outflankers to either grab objectives or force your opponent to set up farther away from the edges...which means closer to your MCs

This is taking all of your advice as golden save the toxin sacs on the Heavy carnies. AS you can see on this list I've added genestealers and significantly reduced my model count of bodies as a result as well as "fixing" the carnies and tyrants. As food for thought I've added reasons for my unit choices as seeds to stimulate better explanation.

Nidzilla Army-1995

HQ-Hive Tyrant-146+138=284
Toxin Sacs 12
Enhanced senses 10
2xTwin-Linked Devourers 24
Extended Carapace 25

Tyrant Guard 46x3=138
(Melee Specialist unit now functions as the quintessential stand and shoot, It is now effectively a 10 wound assault 12 shooting platform with a 2+/3+ armor save, 20% decrease in performance predicted, 50% increase in survivability predicted)

HQ-Hive Tyrant-211
Adrenal Glands(WS) 4
Adrenal Glands(I) 15
Acid Maw 10
Warp Field 35
Flesh Hooks 4
Toxin Sacs 12
Winged 40
2x Scything Talons 16
(went from combination shoot while charging to just charging and no shooting, Can get to targets at which point 6 attacks on charge will... do what? against assault troops proabably not as well but assuming it gets to its target untouched, could proabably win, 4 wounds can dissappear fast if cordinated fire is directed, 20% performance increase predicted, survivability rate is now 0%)

Elites-1x Carnifex-114
2xTwin Linked Devourer
Enhanced Senses
(Went from slightly longer ranged blast&spray to just double spray, no significant performance change predicted on average, as always lower armor saves make a difference, inconsequential performance changes)

Elites-2x Carnifex-114x2=228
Barbed Strangler
Scything Talons
(No changes from above)

Troops-3x8 Gaunts-72x3=216
Fleshborers 2
Without number 3
(Went from 64 termigaunts to 24 termigaunts with without number, assuming they don't immediately begin falling back to synapse after coming back on after being used as moving shield walls, they might just grab an objective I'll leave behind, Survivability chances are now 1% as opposed to 20%, Making them only shields cheapens them greatly in addition to adding reusability if they get lucky and regroup near an objective. )

Troops-1x8+1x9 genestealers-405
Extended carapace
feeder tendrils
scuttlers
(Units added based on the assumption I might need them to hold a rear objective, low unit count due to need to scare opponents into moving closer to units that originally guarenteed death, and now give a 50/50 chance instead for this points level, Should either use for holding rear objectives, outflanking, or run with carnifexes to maximize to hits)

Heavy Support-3x179 Carnifex
Adrenal glands(I) 6
Adrenal glands(ws) 4
Bonded exoskeleton(+1T) 20
Extended Carapace(+1Sv) 25
Reinforced Chitin(+1W) 15
Toxic Miasma(-1WS Opponent) 8
2x Scything Talons 8
(Originally had absolutely staggering destructive potential, now has potential to hurt a unit, Due to dropped upgrades cannot potentially wipe a squad unless squad is 5 man or seriously weakened, however, it now consistently gets 5 attacks on a charge instead of average roll of 6-7 with potential of 4-9 and later turn potential for 2 attacks per round, assault are now virtually guarenteed against 10 man squads or higher except against non assault units to last more then one round, survivability is now reduced by 40% due to inability to assuredly cripple any squad first round, however is raised by 20% due to fact that opponents burning need to shoot them and only them will undoubtebly drop when faced between them and a squad of 8 genestealers in melee. overall expect 20% performance drop.)


More bodies on the field... Its funny this was originally a 1500 list with one less carny... It got to 2000 on the thought it would be more viable... it seems that the answer shouldn't be more bodies but rather more points should be scrounged up... jeese man, unless I start really cutting into the carnies the only way to put more critters or synapse up is either non combatant warriors or trade 4 gaunt for a stealer, when you ask for more bodies it should be more like trade for more bodies or up the list to 2500. I could do either but i've already made one new army today, so now I need to wait a bit before I spend more time making a different theme... Tell you what though, I'll break tradition with me and make a viable generic army on sunday. No more melee necrons or Wraith Eldar or other unviable-but-for-some-reason-extremely-effective-lists till after I make that one
(incidently, for the life of me, me and my local store gamers can not find a legitimate reason why an all wraithguard/wraithlord list is so effective, any ideas? )

P.S. Yes, thats right Melee Necrons if someone asks I'll post the list, otherwise, It stays with me till it proves itself to be unviable, losing to an assault based army would be a good start, or losing to a shooty army, or for that matter losing a game at all.
(Melee Necrons current record-Speed freaks 0-3, Blood Angels 0-1, Green Tide 0-9, Mob and mixed Tyranids 0-5, more standard Necrons- tied, CSM- 0-2, Dark Eldar Wychs 0-1, Shooty Eldar 0-1, IG no games completed, last one ended with my entire army engaging half of his he couldn't shoot me , Tau a close 0-1 we'll say .5-1, Demons none played, Combined Orks and tau army 0-2 was close the second time.)

Well....you startd going the right way for an all Nidzilla list. Drop the Gaunts, they're worthless in Nidzilla and restrict your ability to work well. Replace them with Genestealers they are whats meant to be fielded with an all MC's build. Because they don't need to have synapse around them and allows you the flexibility to destroy with your Tyrants unhindered by Gaunts.

The other reason Bounty-Hunter is telling you to drop some of the excessive upgrades on the 'Fex's is because it will allow you to take more Genestealers which really help since you've maxed out your MC's choices already.

Cheers

All good changes mate! I think your estimation of changes to units' roles is a bit extreme - I certainly think your foot tyrant will not decrease in power by 50%, I think it is far more effective than before! Upgrades don't always inrease the unit's punch much, and certainly not efficiently.

THe flyrant still has enhanced senses, I think you forgot to take that off. Also, does it really need the toxic miasma/WS/I upgrades? I know these are good on a cc tyrant, but have a look at your opponents, see if you play any armies with lots of troops where they are necessary. Example, if you were attacking normal marines, you'd already strike first, hit on 3s, and be hit back on 4s, none of the upgrades would change that.

Fexes all look good, I advise taking off spine banks, toxin sacs. Str10 is only that good against T5 multiwound models, or against land raiders (again you just need to look at opponents, if you face lots of these things, take the toxin sacs) And if you want spine banks, can't you just take flesh hooks instead?

I don't dislike gaunts as much as some, but I agree that genestealers scare me more. However many stealers you use, extended carapace>scything talons in my book. With the high initiative and WS, the stealers should still blast most units, scything talons can if anything be overkill by causing you to break or wipe out the enemy unit in one turn, leaving you exposed to fire. The improved save will give you more staying power, it makes things harder for your opponent (since a good opponent will always try to shoot the stealers first!)

Edited the list above, while I don't like the idea for some reason, I will relent and reduce my tyrant+carnies, I suppose the numbers on average area still pretty much guarenteed pens/ID on anything except toughness 5 now so I'll see how effective it is.

Ya cut all the gaunts and if you do it right you should cut all the crap and go 3 squads of rending genestealers