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Afternoon all,

The glamour rule for the Changeling Pink Horror special character throws up a few questions:

1) Are multiple uses per turn allowed?
- For instance, if three units are all within 24" of the Changeling and all declare shooting (one by one of course) can he use his power against all three? He does have We are Legion special rule IIRC, meaning he can split his fire, but this does seem pretty powerful.

2) Which weapons exactly can be fired?
- An affected unit that chooses to risk shooting and then fails their LD check must unload on another unit of my choice, firing every weapon 'no holding back'. So, for example, could I use that units demolition charges and other such one-use niceties?

3) Units that are immune to psychology - can you still mess with them?
- Sincerely, I apologise if this last bit is printed clearly, but I'm at work and don't have access to the book right now (I know, I hate it too!) and I'm trying to formulate an army whilst being paid for it

If the answers are 'Yes', 'Anything' and 'Yes'...I'm impressed! He's a playful little bugger eh?

1) The rule is so loosely written that you can definitely argue multiple uses, however as single use is also equally plausible (as is infinite use - making units take infinite checks as, if they pass, they are then "just about to fire" again....) You can only DEFINITELY show permission for a single use ona single target.

This is something completely different to We Are Legion, as the power is not a shooting ability - number of targets is irrelevant as it is not your shooting phase....

2) You can fire any and all weapons the unit would normally be able to fire. Yes, that means you can fire Demo Charges or other one use items, however cannot fire heavy weapons if they have moved (as the rule doers not override this specific restriction) nor fire more than the normal allowed for the unit type (1 for anything but MC, for example)

3) ItP does not exist in 40k (any longer) - you just have fearless. Unless it states otherwise it affects all units including Fearless units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You can only DEFINITELY show permission for a single use on a single target.

Ahh - now I understand the inifinite loop is ridiculous, but is it stretching it too far that he uses the ability on multiple targets per turn?

nosferatu1001 wrote:This is something completely different to We Are Legion, as the power is not a shooting ability - number of targets is irrelevant as it is not your shooting phase....

Absolutely agree, but as a supporting arguement to the above, it seems to me that the designer's intention is to have him, as a model, affecting multiple targets. I don't think that's a massive leap of logic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You can fire any and all weapons the unit would normally be able to fire. Yes, that means you can fire Demo Charges or other one use items.

Superb!

Tantras - trouble is as this is a permissive system, and you can only definitely show permission for single use, then you can only use it a single time.

Anything else you cannot show definite permission for, so you must choose the least powerful option.

Don't expect to use multiple uses in tournaments, certainly not those that use INAT. See CD.54C.01 where it is clarified you can only use it on a single target

nosferatu1001 is, as ever, 100% correct

Not "as ever", I've made some booboos in the past

On this one I am confident though - ify ou allow multiple uses you MUST allow infiniite uses (until the target unit fails) so the only sensible solution is single use

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) You can fire any and all weapons the unit would normally be able to fire. Yes, that means you can fire Demo Charges or other one use items, however cannot fire heavy weapons if they have moved (as the rule doers not override this specific restriction) nor fire more than the normal allowed for the unit type (1 for anything but MC, for example)

The only problem here is, while the unit is forced to fire on a friendly unit by the changeling, weapon choices are still governed by the player who owns the unit (as nothing says otherwhise, so you follow the normal rules) simply with restriction that every model must fire the maximum number of weapons it can.

This means for example a psyker with a potent psychic shooting attack and a bolt pistol could certainly opt to fire the bolt pistol, and in the case of the Demo Charge, since there is no way to field them without having another weapon, generally a lasgun, the odds of them being used are slim to none.

Also, I see no reason that the player would have to declare the weapons being used before doing the leadership test, because if you pass the test there is no rule saying you cannot hold back and must fire everything, so it's not even like players will declare the use of their powerful weapons in the hope of passing the leadership test only to fail and shoot a friendly unit.

I am going to have to agree. The rules really only allow for 1 use of Glamour. Also, where it does say that, "the unit must immediately fire all of its weapons (no holding back!) agasint a friendly unit," I do believe that leaves the normal restrictions in place. For example, a Veteran (IG) with a democharge could still choose to fire his lasgun instead of use his demo. Even though he is forced to fire all of his weapons, he cannot fire two weapons per shooting phase, so by firing his lasgun... he effectively denies you the demo. However a Scout Sentinel (IG) with a HK missle would have to fire the missle, as there is nothing preventing it from firing that plus whatever its main weapon is.

Drunkspleen wrote:The only problem here is, while the unit is forced to fire on a friendly unit by the changeling, weapon choices are still governed by the player who owns the unit (as nothing says otherwhise, so you follow the normal rules) simply with restriction that every model must fire the maximum number of weapons it can.

Is this also confirmed in 'INAT CD.54C.01' then? Also, what is this document and where can I find it?

That is a good point. The only part which CD.54C.01 addresses (in version 3, anyway) is how many times the glamour can be used.

The rule says that the unit fires all of its weapons (without the emphasis), but it isn't clear whether that's supposed to override the normal shooting restrictions. Taking the words at face value, a vehicle with an ordnance weapon and other weapons, if the daemon player got lucky and glamored it, has to fire all of its weapons even though it can not do so. And then there's the problem with the previously mentioned other models which more weapons than they can fire at once.

I suppose it would be even more fun to consider whether the unit would be allowed to target itself. After all, a squad of guys would have line of sight to themselves, and it doesn't explicitly say that the glamoured unit has to target the second unit, just that a second unit has to be visible. But that would just be flagrant rules lawyering and would be bad.

solkan wrote:The rule says that the unit fires all of its weapons (without the emphasis), but it isn't clear whether that's supposed to override the normal shooting restrictions. Taking the words at face value, a vehicle with an ordnance weapon and other weapons, if the daemon player got lucky and glamored it, has to fire all of its weapons even though it can not do so. And then there's the problem with the previously mentioned other models which more weapons than they can fire at once.

Yeah, the more the question is discussed, the more possible outcomes are discovered. I'm highly sceptical that you could use multiple weapons... but I suppose the discussion would have to be between the two players as to whether RAW are in effect.

It's a very powerful ability for +5pts anyway, that is certainly established.

solkan wrote:The rule says that the unit fires all of its weapons (without the emphasis), but it isn't clear whether that's supposed to override the normal shooting restrictions. Taking the words at face value, a vehicle with an ordnance weapon and other weapons, if the daemon player got lucky and glamored it, has to fire all of its weapons even though it can not do so. And then there's the problem with the previously mentioned other models which more weapons than they can fire at once.

It does say all, which in a closed system would mean firing more than 1 weapon per infantry model perhaps, but the fact is that there are shooting rules in the core rulebook which you are following (you have to be following them, otherwhise you can't resolve the shooting) and which haven't been replaced by alternate rules, thus while you must fire all weapons, you are generally still only allowed to fire one (unless we are talking MCs/bikes/vehicles/Tau).

The fact is, unless the rules tell you quite explicitly to fire more than one weapon per model, you can't.