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Looking at the options in the SW Codex, one unit jumps out at me...

5x Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Power Fist (optional), MotW (optional)
Wolf Guard, Combi-Melta, Power Fist
Razorback

The Combi-Melta and Power Fist combo on the Wolf Guard is way undercosted, cheaper than normal SMs pay for it, and on a better model (Counter-Attack is very good).

My impression of the SWs is that they are extremely strong as footsloggers, but no army can win in 5e without at least some speed. There's very little synergy using Drop Pods and Rhinos, but the numbers work a lot better with the Razorback.

Thoughts?

Some observations from my first game against SWs:
- Guy used JotWW once, it went through my Librarian's Pyschic Hood, killed 2 Sternguard and Pedro. He didn't use it again, because he felt guilty for how lame it is. I know it's a dead horse, but I still feel this power was a serious mistake.
- He used 9x Blood Claws with a Wolf Priest. The Wolf Priest was BY FAR his MVP. I shot and assaulted the BCs and 10x GHs, beat on them all game, and they just laugh it off and win assaults. Hit them with 8x Assault Marines, and they melted.

Razorbacks definitely seem like the best way to use Grey Hunters.

5x Grey Hunters with a metla-gun, with a Powerfist/Combi-melta toting Wolf Guard in a Razorback? Exactly what I've been using!

Using RBs for transports means you lose out on the free Meltagun in your GH squad. But it makes a decent firebase.

JoWW isn't that great against Marines of any color. I4 means only a 5-6 fails and unless you are lining up deep, a line won't clip more than 3-4 models. That's maybe 1 dead.

Your assault marines charging the BCs probably rolled poorly. It happens.

Combi melta/PFist is not overcosted for WG. It is overcosted for SMs.

Footslogging marines die horribly to battlecannons and plasma tanks. That's where drop pods come in. APCs keep them safe and mobile as well.

5 GH, melta, Wolfguard with combi melta: 103 points
5 Inq Stormtroopers with 2 meltas: 70 points

I'd save 33 points by putting Inq Stormtroopers in Razorbacks bought for Long Fangs. At worst, they're a cheap scoring unit and at best they kill Land Raiders while giving up nothing if they die.

Yep, you save 33 points, but lose the Power Fist, lose the Bolters on the extra guys, lose the Power Armor, the extra CC Weapons, the ATSKNF, and Counter Charge.

Oh, and the ability to start the game inside the transport.

The problem with mass Razors is, in my opinion, that you'll have many small squads with an 40 pts. vehicle each. Okay, the tanks got a HB, but
4x Grey Hunter pack (5 men)
with flamer and wolf standart each in razors:
500 pts.

vs.

2x Grey Hunter pack (10 men)
with flamer, melta and wolf standart in rhinos:
390 pts.

110 pts. for three tl. HBs with more fragile troops and fewer special weapons in it? Well, everyone has his own taste (yeah 2 more scoring units and more targets if that's worth it)...

For the pts. I would prefer
2x rhino pack and 1x razor pack for 515 pts. (25 marines instead of 20)

@Phryxis: If the Wolves have had wolf standarts, your assault marines would be dead now (re-roll any 1 in the assault phase, even saves)

I was looking at starting a SW army and using 6 man squads in razorbacks as well, I think it's a great idea, it's on my painting table now!

Most of the razorback heavy lists I have seen do failry well, overall.

I think counter charge works well with getting spilled out of your transport also, theres just no getting past all those attacks.

Aduro wrote:Yep, you save 33 points, but lose the Power Fist, lose the Bolters on the extra guys, lose the Power Armor, the extra CC Weapons, the ATSKNF, and Counter Charge.

Your suicide melta unit: 168 points
My suicide melta unit: 110 points

I'm shaving 56 points off of two squads, so I get 116 points of whatever-I-want-extra in the total list.

Why are you giving a powerfist to a suicide melta unit? You're over-kitting a suicide squad or under-manning an assault squad. This unit isn't shooty enough to be a threat or fighty enough to be a threat.

These guys are for jumping out of a transport and dying while the Razor drives away dakkaing, or sitting on an objective and scoring while the Razor dakkas. In both situations cheaper is better.

Oh, and the ability to start the game inside the transport.

In Spearhead and Pitched Battle deployment 5 guard models can easily be 100% hidden behind a Razorback. In DoW it actually helps you considerably to have the Fangs deploy in the Razor and drive 12" in, disembark 2", and run an additional d6 to find good positions while the ISTs walk on and embark on turn 2.

Useful synergies maximize lists.

sourclams wrote:5 GH, melta, Wolfguard with combi melta: 103 points
5 Inq Stormtroopers with 2 meltas: 70 points

I'd save 33 points by putting Inq Stormtroopers in Razorbacks bought for Long Fangs. At worst, they're a cheap scoring unit and at best they kill Land Raiders while giving up nothing if they die.

If you lose the first turn, the Stormtroopers have a good chance of dying instantly before they can mount their transport, especially to an enemy with indirect firepower. You have a good point for Dawn of War missions, but otherwise this seems like a questionable tactic. Also, 6 Grey Hunters can assault some units (esp. IG ones) with a reasonable expectation of winning, even without the fist, while 5 ISTs cannot. I would gladly pay the 30 points for an extra wound, more survivability (esp. for a Troops unit that could feasibly end up on an objective), and flexibility, as well as the ability to mount your transport from the start. Also, the Inquisitorial option will by all accounts be removed soon, so it's unsustainable in the long run. Also, an army without Long Fangs obviously can't use this technique.

Fetterkey wrote:Also, the Inquisitorial option will by all accounts be removed soon, so it's unsustainable in the long run. Also, an army without Long Fangs obviously can't use this technique.

Your other points are fair ones, but this is a statement I have seen several times and, quite simply, don't understand. The Inq codex is probably looking at a year plus before it hits the tabletop, and I think I'm being overly optimistic about its release. ISTs/Mystics/SoB aren't crutch units like Nob Bikers that people rely upon to make work, they're helpful additions for tweaking a list and generally take up something like 10-15% of total point allocation. "It won't work in a year" is no reason for an Imperial player not to use an option if it makes his list better in the 9 month interim.

I've seen lists for which Mystics are absolutely "crutch units," especially in Codex: Imperial Guard; several of these lists would essentially auto-lose to Drop Pods or even Dæmons without the Mystic bubble. I think that, while Inquisitorial options are certainly viable, people shouldn't rely on them, as this will force them to seriously adapt their tactics when/if Inquisitorial allies are removed from the game.

Sometimes all rounder units work out better than purpose specific stuff, and I am no longer a beleiver in the one job unit if it is a suicide unit.

I don't build throw away anything anymore.

I still say the SW razorback squads are great!

Agreed. They seem like one of the best ways to use Troops slots in Codex: Space Wolves to me.

JoWW isn't that great against Marines of any color. I4 means only a 5-6 fails and unless you are lining up deep, a line won't clip more than 3-4 models. That's maybe 1 dead.

True, and if I recall right Pedro's I5, so even less chance... As I said, got through a Psychic Hood, killed Pedro and two Sternguard. That's a lot of points.

But that's my problem with it, it's too extreme. Might do nothing, might kill off 250 points in one go. Also too powerful against some armies (Nidzilla).

It's not that it's totally overpowered (I think it's a bit overpowered tho), it's just too extreme. Does nothing, or totally changes the game. Just a bad rule.

I'd save 33 points by putting Inq Stormtroopers in Razorbacks bought for Long Fangs.

Not exactly a SW build tho. Also, I don't think the 33 points is a good trade at all. For what you get with the SWs, it's worth a TON more than 33 points.

The problem with mass Razors is, in my opinion, that you'll have many small squads with an 40 pts. vehicle each.

While I didn't make it clear, this wasn't what I was thinking. I was more looking at a block of footslogging GHs, then a couple of RzBs as the troops choices. My thinking these days is very "my objective, his objective." Need something hard to stand on your objective, something fast to go to the other.

You're over-kitting a suicide squad or under-manning an assault squad.

In the past I might have agreed with this, but the more I play my Marines (who Combat Squad 2/3 of games), the more I've come to realize that squads are just blocks of guys. If you have 10 man blocks, that's what you've got. But if you've got 5 man blocks, nothing stops you from using two at once in an assault, but you can still send 5 of them to beat on a squad of Fire Warriors, kill a squad of Guardsmen, etc.

So, as an example, let's say you've got 2x RzBs headed for an objective. Opponent makes no move to oppose you, but goes hard for yours. You send one RzB to take it, and you send the other to assist your center. With a Rhino, you have to choose.

Useful synergies maximize lists.

No question. But in this case, that's a big reason I look to the RzB. Space Wolves have a very poor synergy with 10 man capacities. They've got a great value in their Wolf Guard. They've got some very nice HQ units to buff their squads (Wolf Priest).

They do much better at 6. Maximizes their Fist density and their density of Wolf Guards, and depending on how you score a Combi-Melta, it maximizes their density of Melta.

The only real downside I see, is that with RzBs you're putting 40pt KPs out there. In the end, since 2/3rds of missions are objective based, I see no reason not to load up on RzBs under the current rules.