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Ok, I have been playing against space marines for a little while now, and I really need some help on tactics.

I have been playing against veteran players. So, I dont expect a total victory, but I seem to have trouble killing those marines and getting through the 3+ save. Another i have learn just by it failing is not to take cover save off something that is just going to get a 3+ armor save. Also, so many things now have a 4+ invul. save. So, I am starting to see a trend that the value is in making one make a ton of saves on a squad rather than trying to take away the cover save or beat armor save all the time. I noticed this the most when my marklights take a cover save on and most of the time they get either armor 3 or 2 or invul 4+. I mean in the relm of math they are basically the same. I mean sure you can do ap2 gun on a light target that you have taken their cover save from, but if hes got invul he still gets to take 4+. So I am finding I save the 3 marklights give him his cover save, but make my guys shoot at bs 5, and go for number of shots on a target rather than trying to take their cover away all the time.

If this sounds like a sound strategy let me know. IF not, let me know. This is against MEQ, as I am going to tournament and need all the advice I can get. Let me know what you do.

Here are a couple general rules for using your marker lights:

Don't reduce the cover save beyond any other save you can't get rid of. For Example:

1. If you're firing Pulse Rifles at Marines in cover, there is no point in reducing cover saves,as their armor save is better. Use the marker lights to boost ballistic skill instead

2. If you're firing plasma rifles at normal terminators in cover, don't use marker lights to reduce the cover save lower than 5+, as they have a 5+ invulnerable save. If you have 2 marker light hits, use one to reduce the cover save to 5+, the other to boost ballistic skill.

3. firing plasma rifles at terminators with storm shields in cover, don't reduce the cover save since they have a 3+ invulnerable save. Boost Ballistic skill.

Use the marker lights for the most effective unit. If you hit a squad of Marines in cover with three marker lights, don't use them for the ten fire warriors with str 5 AP 5 rifles, use them for the three crisis suits with plasma rifles and fusion blasters.

Having said that, massed fire will always work. The question is; will it work in time to prevent the marine wave from smashing into your forces?

Thx for replying! Yeah i keep having problems with them getting to close to my marines or putting my suits in combat. Some times I survive, sometimes i die horribly. So many units can move 24 inches and assault I have trouble not getting into CC. Anything i can do to prevent that.

The key to successfully playing Tau, probably more than any other army, is target priority and board awareness. You must kill the most threatening units first. In a vanilla setup, that would be something like:

Land Raiders (20" assault range)
Assault Marine Jump Infantry (18" assault range)
Transports (Rhinos, etc)

Vindicators are also extremely dangerous for their shooting (strength 10 AP 1 large blast), able to insta-kill an entire crisis suit team if they get caught in the open. Predators are also high value targets. In my 1500 point list I have four railguns, a three man broadside team and a hammerhead. Typically in my first round of shooting I'll markerlight up the land raider, shoot two of the broadsides at it, and the team leader with his target lock at the vindicator. If one of those salvos fail, I back it up with the hammerhead. If they succeed, I'll shoot a Rhino or a Predator with the hammerhead. It's not uncommon to blow up three of my opponents vehicles in turn one.

When it comes to dealing with infantry units, for instance 12 jump infantry, you have to focus fire on it from multiple units, wearing them down as fast as possible. You can also use kroot as a screening force to protect your more valuable units.

Things get more complicated when the marines start using drop pods, deep striking, and outflanking. When drop pods or deepstrikes come in you have to either shoot whatever came down with enough fire power to take it out, or move your forces out of the assault danger (not always easy or possible). Don't forget to kill the drop pods, they have weapons and may have a beacon that helps deepstrike further units in without error.

For outflankers, you need to keep your units far enough away from the short edges that units coming on will not be within assault range of your forces. Note that with some units this simply won't be possible; I.E. Snikrot Kommandos or Space Wolf Scouts, so just accept that you will lose a unit to them, and deal with them after.

And don't forget you can jump, run, jump with your suits. Losing their firepower for a turn is bad, but not as bad as having them wiped out in an assault if the extra burst of speed will break them free of entrapment.

One thing i am running into is i have 3 fast attack slots to fill and i have marklights covered.

So my question is, What is more valuable a full squad of vespid or 3 piranhas. I figure the vespid just because they can can potential drop a full squad of vespid with just shooting and they get to assault, however i recognize the effect of blocking assaults with the piranhas and disembarking the drones to stop 2 assaults a turn. what do you guys think?

if you have 3 fast attack slots open you are not getting the best points return on markerlights. Pathfinders I have found to be critical when taking out marines. if only for the extra devilfish with tele-porting beacons. Pirhanas are good as well, Vespid may be okay against marines, but really aren't worth the slot, you have better things to spend your points on. the best tau tactic i have found against marines is MOBILITY. you are faster than they are, keep mobile and aware of the board. deny KP and contest whatever you can.

and never sneer about the power of a pulse rifle 12" away, 24 s5 bs5 shots, pretty brutal against marines, just make sure you aren't using only one unit, the key (as others have said is to concentrate your firepower, never stop shooting until the target is DEAD DEAD DEAD.

Tau do not defeat marines by crashing headlong into their lines, they defeat them by precision and mobility.

and if you are playing often against marines with drop pods, deep striking or outflanking don't forget your PosR. Tau play best when you can control the tempo of the game.

Tau Fast attack slots are kind of underwhelming.

As has been said, pathfinders are the cheapest source of markerlights, but I have also found them to be the most fragile, rarely surviving past round 3 in cover.

Vespids are horrible, too expensive for what they bring to the table, and too fragile to do it more than once.

Piranha are ok, a bit expensive points wise for what they bring to the table, but it is our fastest unit.

I'm not fond of gun drone squads, but some people like them.

If you have enough marker lights to accomplish what you need (either through a stealth marker team or something else) Then I wouldn't worry about fast attack slots too much, the strength of the Tau army, imo, is in the elite and heavy slots.

However the Tau Army is not faster than Marines, and probably not faster than anyone except Necrons. Our Vehicles move 12", Marine Vehicles move 12". Our Crisis Suits move 12", their Jump Infantry moves 12". Add in that the marines will likely run for the first turn or two, and we're losing ground fast.

A good marine player will use their speed to compress the area the Tau have to manuver in to box them in. Your Job as Tau is to kill enough units that the rush either fails all together, or that you make a hole in the box to escape through.

Kroot Loops wrote:Tau Fast attack slots are kind of underwhelming.

As has been said, pathfinders are the cheapest source of markerlights, but I have also found them to be the most fragile, rarely surviving past round 3 in cover.

Vespids are horrible, too expensive for what they bring to the table, and too fragile to do it more than once.

Piranha are ok, a bit expensive points wise for what they bring to the table, but it is our fastest unit.

I'm not fond of gun drone squads, but some people like them.

If you have enough marker lights to accomplish what you need (either through a stealth marker team or something else) Then I wouldn't worry about fast attack slots too much, the strength of the Tau army, imo, is in the elite and heavy slots.

However the Tau Army is not faster than Marines, and probably not faster than anyone except Necrons. Our Vehicles move 12", Marine Vehicles move 12". Our Crisis Suits move 12", their Jump Infantry moves 12". Add in that the marines will likely run for the first turn or two, and we're losing ground fast.

A good marine player will use their speed to compress the area the Tau have to manuver in to box them in. Your Job as Tau is to kill enough units that the rush either fails all together, or that you make a hole in the box to escape through.

Vespid and Gun Drones are poor choices. Pathfinders bring a Devilfish with them and the all-important Markerlights. Do they die fast? Yes, because anyone who's played Tau more than once knows he's got to get rid of the Markerlights fast. You have to put them in cover and use your opponent's fixation on them to your advantage. Make him commit ungodly amounts of firepower to kill them and then hammer anything that made itself vulnerable to get at the Pathies. They're excellent bait, not to mention being incredibly useful. SMTs are expensive and cannot be used as a primary source of Markerlights.

Piranhas are excellent units to kill and disrupt Land Raiders and the units they carry when you upgrade them with a Fusion Blaster and a Targeting Array. You can zoom up and crack it open with the melta weapons on two Piranhas, and whatever nasties spill out have to deal with the Piranhas right in their faces. Even if they kill your Piranhas, they're now exposed to whatever you've positioned to take advantage of the situation. Even if you don't crack the LR, the Piranhas still block its movement and the LR has to waste a turn of shooting/moving to try and get rid of them to proceed uninhibited, giving your Broadsides another crack at it.

To the OP, the previous posters pretty much have it dead on with how to use your MLs against Marines. I find that Fireknife, Burning Eye, and Helios Crisis Suits work great against MEQ and TEQ alike.

Also, don't forget to bring Kroot Hounds and Carnivores to eat Tactical Squads alive after you've shot them up a little bit

So yea...

Anyways on to the obvious.

Piranhas are amazing, I use 2 at 1850 and 4 at 2k. They block movement and are a huge hassle for armies to get rid of, especially with front armor 11.

You want 1 unit of pathfinders in any army up to 2k pts. Target priority is key. You need to decide which unit needs to die each turn. Then hit it with markerlights and then shoot it to death with enough fireknife suits.

Kroot will help you mop up very small squads of stuff. Like 5 marines, 2 TH/SS terminators ect. Just keep them away from dreads and such.

Also, firewarriors are bad. 10x marines with 1 special/1 heavy weapon in a rhino are basically the same cost as 10 firewarriors in a devilfish. Yet you don't see people running 60x marine/6x rhino armies. So why do people try it with tau?

You can pack 7 marker lights into a 3 man SMT (six marker drones, team leader with marker light). It's ungodly expensive yes, but the question is whether or not the cost is worth it to have marker lights that can move 12" a turn while still shooting, and being largely immune to return fire due to the stealth field at greater than 36" range.

My opponents tend to pie plate my pathfinders, early and often. The problem with pathfinders is they don't have to be wiped out to lose effectiveness quickly. With BS 3, roughly half the shots hit. If your 8 man pathie team takes a vindicator pie plate in cover and three die, you're down to 2-3 ML hits. If the LR autocannon kills another, you're down to 2. A couple of rhino's hit with their storm bolters and kill another, you're down to 1-2 ML hits. And unfortunately this isn't an uncommon development with 4+ saves over the span of a single turn.

I still use Pathfinders at 1500. At 2k, I use a SMT

Timmah wrote:So yea...

Anyways on to the obvious.

Piranhas are amazing, I use 2 at 1850 and 4 at 2k. They block movement and are a huge hassle for armies to get rid of, especially with front armor 11.

I don't play Tau, and i am Not a fan of Piranhas with Fusion guns when I'm fielding a landraider. dodging LoS with their speed and popping up next to you to burst your landraider sucks

Or parking right in front of your landraider so that it can't move is also fun.

Do flamers ignore the 3+ cover save for them going flat out? Because I know exactly what the marine players I play against would do; back up, pivot, pull around the side, and fire that heavy flamer right down the line of them.

I don't see why, it wouldn't negate the save. It is a cover save after all and flamers ignore those. Really though, it seems unlikely that a heavy flamer would be able to pop more than one piranha if any, even on the side armor. It is only str 5.

Ok piranhas it is. I have been mulling it for a while now. See i could really see how vespid could be amazing if you can get them to move say 12" fire 1 inch away then assault. If you cant do that scenario its not going to happen for the vespid. On the other hand I have read about the protection the piranhas afford using drones to stop assaults and bursting down the field to drop landraiders. I'm going to post my tau list and you guys let me know what you think. I know it should go into army list, but it seems like I get a lot of post from non tau players that sometimes just want to say hey i think that's dumb or hey that's awesome and don't necessarily know what they are thinking.

1850

HQ AFP, TL misslepod HWMT 2 shield drones

2x 3 crisis suits fire knife 1 with 2 shield drones 1 without

1 stealth marker team 7 markers. this is a must as i have yet to lose a drone. if you keep them at 30" there is such a low chance they can see ya, a lot of times you can jump behind something to block LOS all together. Opponents hate them a lot.

2x 6 firewarriors in 2 devilfish with disruption pod only for taking objectives and protecting the scoring unit. Every time i drop my firewarriors they die to something or run off table on a gunline so i figure make em cheap fast and protected and hope for the best.

3 piranhas not sure weither to take 3 squads or 3 in a squadron please post about that.

3 rail heads w/SMS. I know take broadsides i have them, but every game some dumb unit gets cc with them and honestly other than the first 2 rounds they dont do much more even with ass as the rest of my army is moving 12" and they are moving at d6 Also, I destroy, I mean destroy nids and orks.

They plan is simple move stuff around marklight up what needs to die and focus fire. I get so much more use out of my marklights because they can paint every turn, because they are relentless. Also, a hidden bonus to them is they all have carbines so, 15 str 5 hits 6 of which are pinning. I did this once and my opponents jaw dropped losing 8 guys and the squad pinned. Lol ork player. Remember this is for a tournament and I am pretty sold on the 2x6 pathfinders in 2 devilfish, because in most tournaments you see a lot of chees. I.e ss/th drop pod. And I also use them as bait, because veteran players with send stuff after the devilfish. let me know what you guys think

Tortoiseer wrote:I don't see why, it wouldn't negate the save. It is a cover save after all and flamers ignore those. Really though, it seems unlikely that a heavy flamer would be able to pop more than one piranha if any, even on the side armor. It is only str 5.

I'll have to look it up, hellfire flamer or some such, the one mounted on the LR pintels. I was thinking it was strength 6 AP 3, but could very well be wrong

Seems like a solid list.
Definately make 3 squads of 1 piranha.

I would recommend dropping a firewarrior squad + devilfish and adding in 2 squads of 10 kroot/7 hounds.

As they help keep your stuff outa CC. Then you can switch back to 2 broadsides instead of 1 hammerhead if you want.

Weight of fire kills marines. My general strategy for marines is to shoot them as they advance. Hop in my devil fish, run away, redeploy & repeat. This works well as long as I can get my crisis, broadsides, Hammerhead, Pirhana & vespids to kill his anti-tank units. Then again I usually play 2k pt. games so I don't know how much this will help you.

The best for playing most armies I have found with Tau is to set up 2 firebases of broadsides and pathfinders. The enemy has to decide to split his forces. The rest of your army is fast enough to take out anything that you need taken out. Suits can move faster than most things. If jump packs cause you problems after simply make it a choice to take them out.

personally i would advocate more FW with devilfish and FoF the marines. What gives tau the mobility i spoke of is the sixe and shape of our transports, and the ability to make tanks fire as if they were fast. Im with Shas'O Dorian.

the problem with 3x1 piranhas is simply that in a kill point game (where tau already face problems) you have 6KP wrapped up in fragile units. something I'm wary of almost always.

The other main key with tau is remember, you are going to lose the assualt phase, you are going to likely win the shooting phase (or your doing it wrong) so, if you want to win, you need to also win the movement phase. that is why i advocate FoF, it allows you to cut off avenues of movement and have turns of shooting with pulserifles at 12" away.

Math-hammer, 2 full units of FW, 1 unit pathfinders, FoF vs marines,

1 unit pathfinders gives 4 marker-light hits.
use them to up both Firewarriors BS to 5,

48 shots, hit on 2+, so, 40 hits

40 hits, wounds on a 3+ so 26.67 wounds

3+save, means 8.89 marines dead.

the last marine you can likely kill with the devilfish and gun drones that you are using to keep the FW safe. next trun, load back up in the DF, and rinse repeat.

Fizzywig wrote:personally i would advocate more FW with devilfish and FoF the marines. What gives tau the mobility i spoke of is the sixe and shape of our transports, and the ability to make tanks fire as if they were fast. Im with Shas'O Dorian.

the problem with 3x1 piranhas is simply that in a kill point game (where tau already face problems) you have 6KP wrapped up in fragile units. something I'm wary of almost always.

The other main key with tau is remember, you are going to lose the assualt phase, you are going to likely win the shooting phase (or your doing it wrong) so, if you want to win, you need to also win the movement phase. that is why i advocate FoF, it allows you to cut off avenues of movement and have turns of shooting with pulserifles at 12" away.

Math-hammer, 2 full units of FW, 1 unit pathfinders, FoF vs marines,

1 unit pathfinders gives 4 marker-light hits.
use them to up both Firewarriors BS to 5,

48 shots, hit on 2+, so, 40 hits

40 hits, wounds on a 3+ so 26.67 wounds

3+save, means 8.89 marines dead.

the last marine you can likely kill with the devilfish and gun drones that you are using to keep the FW safe. next trun, load back up in the DF, and rinse repeat.

So, half your army to kill 9 marines?

Less if they are plague marines...lawl.

Seems to me like the above strategy is not terribly cost effective at killing those marines. I'm not sure what the exact cost of 2 full FW squads in devil fish and a supporting pathfinder team is, but I do know it is way more than a 10 man marine squad. It seems unlikely that if a unit is in rapid fire range like that, that it would be so easily isolated. If nothing else, there is probably another rhino with its own marines squad in it, or maybe even just a small assault squad, and you have just used a ton of firepower to eliminate only one squad when their army is practically in assault range

12 FireWarriors in a DF w/ Disruption pods is 205
410.
8 Pathfinders + DF w/ Disruption pods is 181
12 FW to ride in Pathfinder Fisth is 120.

506 points.

4 markerlight hits.

All 24 FW at BS 5.
Lets say in single shot 30":

MEQ: 4.44 Dead Space Marines.

Soooo, in double tap, that's 8.88 Space Marines.

506 for killing 170. Nice.

Don't forget that FNP will cut those casualties in half vs. plague marines.

Actually, not just half.
It's FNP AND T5.

So:
Vs. Plague marines in double tap range: 3.33

So...that's 24 pulse rifles double tapping at BS 5.

Yea....bring the plasma rifles....

120 Points for 12 FW.
Add devilfish + DP for 85.
Pathfinders are 12 each.

2 squads FW = 240
Devilfish +170 = 410

FoF with this over multiple turns and you'll make the points back.

Turn 1 Fire at 30"
24 Shots @ BS4 = 12 hits
12 hits at S5 vs T4 = 8 wounds
8 wounds vs Sv3 = 2.67 Wounds taken

Hop in the fish the next turn and fly towards the enemy. He moves. You move get out and fire.

48 Shots @ BS4 = 24 hits
24 hits @ S5 = 16 wounds
16 wounds vs Sv3 = 5.333 wounds taken

Total wounds after 2 rounds = 8 wounds or 2/3 of a squad.

Overall FoF is not very useful but packed together with other units you can destroy one squad after another with it. You may get lucky and be able to get more hits as well.

410 to kill 170 over THREE turns.
What is the other 240 points for the marine player doing?

Maybe a drop pod with a dread and hvy flamer to BBQ the Fire warriors sitting outside shooting at long range?

Tortoiseer wrote:Seems to me like the above strategy is not terribly cost effective at killing those marines. I'm not sure what the exact cost of 2 full FW squads in devil fish and a supporting pathfinder team is, but I do know it is way more than a 10 man marine squad. It seems unlikely that if a unit is in rapid fire range like that, that it would be so easily isolated. If nothing else, there is probably another rhino with its own marines squad in it, or maybe even just a small assault squad, and you have just used a ton of firepower to eliminate only one squad when their army is practically in assault range

This.

It's what always gets me with these FoF scenarios. Most marine players I know advance in 'the wall' formations, and you will not find isolated units outside of deepstriked or perhaps foolishly advanced jump infantry that this works against.

I can almost guarantee in the set forth scenario, there will be at least two marine units within retaliatory range, either squad or vehicle, and you are going to lose far more strategically than the marines did. All they have to do is destroy or immobilize your devilfish and you can write off the FW squad that was in it.

So lets see, if there are two squads of marines near by, they could go one of two ways. Move forward and melta the DF, and since they are within 12" you don't get your Dpod cover save, or they could just rapid fire the FW since cover and armor save is the same.

I think you'll find that 20 marines rapid fireing on a FW squad actually kills more FW than the other way around. And it's far more devestating to the Tau Army, since FW work solely based on weight of fire. That and your FW squad is far more likely to break and run for it than the Marines.

If the marines are advancing in a wall, you just keep away from them and whittle down the targets with broadsides and suit and hammerheads, nothing in a tau army shoudl be done out of context with the rest of the army, everythign is synergystic. you will win when you can control the tempo and the game plan, force the marine player to split his units, kill the transports. against drop pods, i suggest using the PosR to keep your pathfinders and fire-warriors off the board until you know where the drop pods land, hit the dreads with rail-guns from the broadsides. The key is in the movement phase, If the marine player insists on using the wall and you cant break it, go to denial tactics, contest objectives with with Gun-drones, or piranhas. you don't need to kill everything, Tau is not an army where you are going to beat marines with a board-wipe (except very occasionally) it is one where you will win by SELECTIVE applications of IMMENSE force. you are not going to win by going toe to toe against his entire force you need to be surgical in your application of your force, that is where FoF is very helpful, yes I am firing 500 pts against 170, that 170 will die.

against plague marines, well, thats one where it just comes down to denial and using those rail-guns and suits effectively. against PM yes, you need the suits, against tactical marines, the suits are useful, but are better used against other things on the marine players army.